Bishop: Pastors Must Deny Funerals to Catholics in Same-Gender Marriages

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Springfield, Illinois’ Bishop Thomas Paprocki has come out with new guidelines for how pastors in his diocese are to handle LBGT couples in open same sex relationships.

Good for the good bishop!

And from fr martin’s lips to God’s ears! Though he probably didn’t mean it that way…

 

[Sy_Noe]

I really appreciate your words of finding compassion in their hearts. We have to remember though that Jesus was one of a kind and sinless. He forgave the thief on the cross after he said basically he deserved his fate but Christ had done nothing wrong He repented is the key thought to me. He realized he deserved to be crucified according to the law of the day. Thank God we are beyond crucifixion in this country as punishment for crime.

Jesus founded our Church today though and it through his teachings as recorded in the Bible and magisterium that has shed light on the issues that are being debated and tearing non Catholic Churches apart such as gay marriage.

Personally, I would hope that no one would be denied a Catholic funeral that wants one. This is because of reasons that do with sentiment.

However it begs the question to me as why a homosexual married couple that has lived in an openly sinful relationship that brings scandal to the Church would desire a Catholic funeral to begin with.

Any thoughts on that anyone or know anyone in that situation?

Mary.

Yes here is one thought. The bishop nor any of us know the heart at the moment of any person’s last breath. That would be reason enough for me for those left behind to show compassion in their hearts and then leave the rest to God.

 

[MaryT777]

Jesus may have done nothing wrong in the eyes of his followers…but he did plenty wrong in the eyes of many Romans and Jews at that time, his crime in their eyes was very serious. But still…they found that compassion.

I can’t imagine why they’d want it, either.
But I do have a friend who is gay and considers herself Catholic, so I asked her.
She said that she might want a Catholic funeral because she was brought up with all the rites/sacraments and it seems right to continue with the rituals.
Also, it would be very helpful and comforting to her family, she said. That was very important to her.
And…she says she abided by all the other church teachings her entire life and feels the church is incorrect in its views on homosexuality/marriage and that some day, the church will catch up.
(I’m sure that last point is going to cause consternation here…)

And PS…if the person is now deceased, they are not causing scandal or sinning anymore.

.

I appreciate you asking your friend and your response make good sense to me as a Catholic. I still don’t get though why someone would want a Church Funeral if they felt the Church is incorrect. I personally wouldn’t want to be buried in a Church that felt my lifestyle or marriage was contrary to God and its teachings at the time I was living.



Lots of people are waiting for the Church to “catch up” on certain issues but it saddens me to think people are professing a Faith they don’t believe in on the premise it was catch up someday. The homosexual teachings are straight from the Bible and will never be changed.

I wish you friend well in her Faith journey.

Mary.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Jesus may have done nothing wrong in the eyes of his followers…but he did plenty wrong in the eyes of many Romans and Jews at that time, his crime in their eyes was very serious. But still…they found that compassion.

I can’t imagine why they’d want it, either.
But I do have a friend who is gay and considers herself Catholic, so I asked her.
She said that she might want a Catholic funeral because she was brought up with all the rites/sacraments and it seems right to continue with the rituals.
Also, it would be very helpful and comforting to her family, she said. That was very important to her.
And…she says she abided by all the other church teachings her entire life and feels the church is incorrect in its views on homosexuality/marriage and that some day, the church will catch up.
(I’m sure that last point is going to cause consternation here…)

And PS…if the person is now deceased, they are not causing scandal or sinning anymore.

.

Good point. Funerals are also for the comfort of family and other loved ones. Why punish them even though the Catholic Church holds SS relationships as sinful. If the CC is correct, as you said the person is deceased at that time anyway and for believers, the deceased person’s fate is already in Another’s hands by that point.

 

[MaryT777]

Good point. Funerals are also for the comfort of family and other loved ones. Why punish them even though the Catholic Church holds SS relationships as sinful. If the CC is correct, as you said the person is deceased at that time anyway and for believers, the deceased person’s fate is already in Another’s hands by that point.

I can’t imagine finding comfort in attending a funeral in a Church that had condemned the lifestyle of my loved one as sinful and contrary to the Word of God.

Mary.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I can’t imagine finding comfort in attending a funeral in a Church that had condemned the lifestyle of my loved one as sinful and contrary to the Word of God.

Mary.

Maybe you can’t but maybe another Catholic might.
And Jesus was all in favor of providing comfort when he spoke from the mount:

“Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted.”

 

[jeannetherese]

Had the man in charge not found compassion, this forum–and Christianity–may not exist today.

.

Whoa, are you suggesting that the Resurrection could not have occurred without the donated tomb?

I’m sure that God could get around that pretty easily.

 

[jeannetherese]

From the Catechism:
II. THE CELEBRATION OF FUNERALS

1684 The Christian funeral is a liturgical celebration of the Church. The ministry of the Church in this instance aims at expressing efficacious communion with the deceased, at the participation in that communion of the community gathered for the funeral, and at the proclamation of eternal life to the community.

My bolding.
I wonder if, given the same sex marital situation, the church might be acknowledging those in the irregular situation to have excommunicated themselves from the Church?

 

[MaryT777]

Maybe you can’t but maybe another Catholic might.
And Jesus was all in favor of providing comfort when he spoke from the mount:

“Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted.”

Yes, Jesus has wonderful words during the Sermon on the Mount including words on mourning.

Comfort doesn’t mean one should be guaranteed a Catholic funeral. If you have family members that find it extremely important that you have a Catholic funeral the best way to do that is live a life in keeping with the Faith.

It’s not the fault of the Church if one does not qualify for a Catholic funeral.

Mary.

 

[exnihilo]

And even if I were to accept the RCC’s view on same sex relationships/marriage, and that the bishop is even correct in applying this punitive measure in death against those in open SS relationships the question remains as Fr. Martin posed it… why are same sex relationships being singled out?

I mean equally, from a Catholic POV, openly scandalous divorced, divorced/remarried, openly living together outside marriage, engaging in extra-marital sexual relations, invalidly Catholic married, openly using contraception, openly supporting abortion, etc… parishioners are all committing “sins” as well. Yet the bishop has not addressed any of them similarly with such extreme punitive measures are denying them a Catholic funeral if their pastor or he can’t confirm their repentance before death.

Among sexual sins homosexuality is actually worse. It isn’t the same as heterosexual sex outside of marriage. Part of the modern narrative is that Christianity is unjustly biased against certain choices of sex partners. But that isn’t true.

I wish the Church would be more discriminating about who gets a funeral when they are engaging in manifest public sin. I can think of politicians who had Catholic funerals while promoting and helping to legalize abortion.

 

[OraLabora]

Among sexual sins homosexuality is actually worse. It isn’t the same as heterosexual sex outside of marriage. Part of the modern narrative is that Christianity is unjustly biased against certain choices of sex partners. But that isn’t true.

I wish the Church would be more discriminating about who gets a funeral when they are engaging in manifest public sin. I can think of politicians who had Catholic funerals while promoting and helping to legalize abortion.

And then there is death bed repentance… which is perfectly valid, after all the Thief on the Cross was promised paradise by Jesus. Since a death bed confession is protected by the seal of the confessional, only the priest hearing the repentance is privileged know it happened. This might not be the same priest asked to officiate at the funeral, for example the person may have died in another parish, state or country. And even if the priest who is asked to officiate did hear the deceased’s final confession, he could not reveal that fact. So accepting to do the funeral of one married gay person who repented, and not the one who did not repent, would be giving away to everyone who did and didn’t repent and thus the seal of confession would be violated.

A Catholic, in good standing or not, should get a funeral. Let God sort it out at Judgement.

 

[exnihilo]

And then there is death bed repentance… which is perfectly valid, after all the Thief on the Cross was promised paradise by Jesus. Since a death bed confession is protected by the seal of the confessional, only the priest hearing the repentance is privileged know it happened. This might not be the same priest asked to officiate at the funeral, for example the person may have died in another parish, state or country. And even if the priest who is asked to officiate did hear the deceased’s final confession, he could not reveal that fact. So accepting to do the funeral of one married gay person who repented, and not the one who did not repent, would be giving away to everyone who did and didn’t repent and thus the seal of confession would be violated.

A Catholic, in good standing or not, should get a funeral. Let God sort it out at Judgement.

Private confession is a mercy the Church has allowed. In the early Church confession of grave sins and penance was a public act. Since we are talking about public grave sins it is reasonable that the repentance also be public so as not to scandalize. It seems to me the Thief on the Cross’s repentance was public.

 

[OraLabora]

PSince we are talking about public grave sins it is reasonable that the repentance also be public so as not to scandalize.

The Church, quite simply, does not require this of a sinner, and it is therefore moot to this discussion.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Yes, Jesus has wonderful words during the Sermon on the Mount including words on mourning.

Comfort doesn’t mean one should be guaranteed a Catholic funeral. If you have family members that find it extremely important that you have a Catholic funeral the best way to do that is live a life in keeping with the Faith.

It’s not the fault of the Church if one does not qualify for a Catholic funeral.

Mary.

I would have just thought until faithful Catholics find a way to determine with certainty from their places on earth where an individual’s soul has gone after the moment of their last breath and also while believing in purgatory, that they would welcome the prayers of the faithful for the departed soul in a Catholic funeral rites setting and to provide comfort for those who are left behind to mourn. But I have gotten the impression from this thread that this is not the case. At least not without qualifications placed upon the departed prior to taking their last breath upon this earth. I only know though when my mother died who attended Mass but who by no means followed every crossed “t” and dotted “i”, and for whom the priest did not make it on time for the Sacrament of Anointing, that my also now departed practicing Catholic sister received comfort from a funeral for our mother with Catholic rites. Even I and others in the family who do not practice received comfort from the words and prayers.

 

[Padres1969]

And then there is death bed repentance… which is perfectly valid, after all the Thief on the Cross was promised paradise by Jesus. **Since a death bed confession is protected by the seal of the confessional, only the priest hearing the repentance is privileged know it happened. This might not be the same priest asked to officiate at the funeral, for example the person may have died in another parish, state or country. And even if the priest who is asked to officiate did hear the deceased’s final confession, he could not reveal that fact. ** So accepting to do the funeral of one married gay person who repented, and not the one who did not repent, would be giving away to everyone who did and didn’t repent and thus the seal of confession would be violated.

A Catholic, in good standing or not, should get a funeral. Let God sort it out at Judgement.

You hit one point I’d been bouncing around my head from the moment I heard of this bishop’s decree (and the subsequent Catechism section he’s basing it on). The Pastor and/or Bishop are not necessarily the ones who would know if a person was un-repentant to the end. This seems a case of not giving the deceased any kind of benefit of the doubt, and trying to take it out of God’s hands for the sake of preventing “scandal”, where in fact no scandal may exist other than the denying of the faithful their funerary rights.

 

[ARSpade]

The funerary guideline in particular is raising eyebrows and has already illicited a response from the Vatican’s Secretariat for Communications consultant Father James Martin via his Facebook page.

facebook.com/FrJamesMartin

It’s fascinating that people that think the Bishop of Rome can’t be criticized for anything can find it in them to criticize other Bishops.

But he’s actually right. Those people should be taken to task to. And the church doesn’t do enough of that. I don’t hear stuff about Humanae Vitae nearly enough in homilies. Or the other stuff.

Right on Fr. Martin, the Church needs to be as explicit on those as anything else. Just last week I was annoyed by a birth control conversation supposedly Catholic family members were having.

 

[OraLabora]

It’s fascinating that people that think the Bishop of Rome can’t be criticized for anything can find it in them to criticize other Bishops.

But he’s actually right. Those people should be taken to task to. And the church doesn’t do enough of that. I don’t hear stuff about Humanae Vitae nearly enough in homilies. Or the other stuff.

Right on Fr. Martin, the Church needs to be as explicit on those as anything else. Just last week I was annoyed by a birth control conversation supposedly Catholic family members were having.

Perhaps a funeral, when families are grieving, is not the best time to make such a point.

 

[Ender]

Is it a statement that deserves a rebuke? I mean Fr Martin’s point is well made in that it seems by this ruling that the Bishop is singling out gays and lesbians in same sex relationships for special scrutiny while ignoring “sins” that are of a similar nature and matter.

Yes, Fr. Martin’s comment does merit…attention…on several counts. First, making such a statement on a Facebook page is…ah, poor form. Is this really how we want debates about moral issues to be carried on?

Second, and more significantly, the argument is…how to say this without running afoul of the moderators?..beyond poor. Essentially his point is this: since the church has not enforced the funerary rules adequately in the past, she should not enforce them at all now. That is, it is better to get everything wrong than to get some of it right at the cost of appearing to discriminate against even those who are egregiously wrong.

Third, for someone who is a member of the Vatican apparatus and who’s words carry a bit of extra (and in this case apparently undeserved) weight, you really would expect a cogent argument. He seems rather unfamiliar with canon law, the relevant one being this:*Can. 1184 §1. Unless they gave some signs of repentance before death, the following **must *be deprived of ecclesiastical funerals:
*…3/ other **manifest **sinners who cannot be granted ecclesiastical funerals without public scandal of the faithful.
*This isn’t all that complicated. The law doesn’t say they *may *be denied an ecclesiastical funeral, it says they *must *be. Fr. Martin is arguing for that law to simply be ignored. He then lists other sinners who he claims would have to be denied church funerals: those using birth control, others who are “not loving, not forgiving, not merciful”, and those who don’t follow the teachings of Jesus.

So, what aspect of any of those sinners’ actions that he feels ought to ban them from church funerals is manifest? Are we to ignore the requirement that the sin be manifest? Either that or Fr. Martin is simply unfamiliar with the law, which makes one wonder why he felt compelled to comment on the matter.

Given how…um…less than sterling…his comment was: yes, an…appropriate comment…is decidedly in order.

Ender

 

[Ender]

Good point. Funerals are also for the comfort of family and other loved ones. Why punish them even though the Catholic Church holds SS relationships as sinful. If the CC is correct, as you said the person is deceased at that time anyway and for believers, the deceased person’s fate is already in Another’s hands by that point.

The friends and family of the deceased are not the only one’s affected by a funeral, which is why canon law forbids it to:
*manifest sinners who cannot be granted ecclesiastical funerals without public scandal of the faithful
*Not enforcing its own laws, and not behaving as if they matter, is destructive to the church and her members.

Ender

 

[Ender]

The bishop nor any of us know the heart at the moment of any person’s last breath. That would be reason enough for me for those left behind to show compassion in their hearts and then leave the rest to God.

Then again, maybe not.* …a failure to speak the truth because of a misconceived sense of compassion should not be taken for love. We do not have a right to minimize matters of our own accord, even with the best of intentions. *(JPII)
Ender