Who is Fr. Martin (a non-bishop) to publicly criticize a bishop, a successor of the Apostles, on a point of doctrine? Do western Catholics even think of bishops as successors of the Apostles, as rulers of the church anymore? Or for western Catholics is there only one bishop, the Bishop of Rome?
It is a testament to the fact the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus. A lot of people want to be accepted by the Catholic Church. This doesn’t mean they want to give up their sin and live according to her teachings. They want the Church to bend to their will. But deep down they know she is the Church and so what she says and does has real weight.
The fact that you would equate the “scandal” that Jesus gave through His righteous life and proclamation of the Truth (the kind of scandal Christians are supposed to give) with the scandal we are talking about here shows a complete misunderstanding of or disdain for the Christian notion of virtue and goodness itself.
Uh huh:thumbsup:
The judgment may be unaffected but you seem to have made my point. We can not get around the fact that not a single remaining soul on this earth knows the heart of another upon the death of someone who may have sinned or who by their previous actions may have shown scandal. And it is indeed as you said, God’s job to sort out. Not for any of us humans remaining on this earth to determine. So I would just think we should side on giving the benefit of the doubt to the person who has drawn their last breath on earth and not be their judge or jury. Otherwise to me, we play God.
What I notice is that some people do have various interpretations and understandings of Jesus and Scripture and perhaps even as to what it means to be a Christian and that their understandings have evolved over time. There are indeed many faiths out there as we know. And Catholicism is certainly one that many practice and share.
I do think it is very much up to the baptized Catholic as to what they might want in terms of their final wishes in regards to their funeral or for their loved one. I was too young to really remember as this was decades ago, but my mother for instance became active in her parish after the parish priest had a Catholic funeral Mass for my non practicing father and the ladies of the parish served a luncheon to the family following the burial. That was something that actually brought her back into attending Mass even though she came up short of following every single teaching and yet she later became active in the parish life and for many yrs served as treasurer of their Altar Society group and she herself became quite active in organizing meals for others in mourning following the funerals of their loved ones. And even took on a role as chief cook in preparing and planning a schedule for herself and other women of the parish to provide suppers for the priest. And every 8 am Mass on Sunday morning she had me, her young son, there with her in the pew. My practicing Catholic sister I know received comfort decades later by then having Catholic funeral rites for my mother. And as I’ve said, even I received comfort. In my mother’s case, she sounded like your last paragraph. She knew the struggle my Baptism has given me but always said you were baptized Catholic and thus you are. At the same time knowing of my later struggles as I grew older, she did have her moments of wishing she had not done so. But in her case, we knew her wishes were to have Catholic rites. I’ve had many relatives who have done so probably precisely for the reason you stated in your last paragraph.
His rampant infidelity was kept very much under wraps except for his inner circle and an elite circle in Washington and Palm Springs. So he did not create widespread scandal during his life and his funeral was not a scandal, given what Cardinal Cushing probably knew and didn’t know. I didn’t think it was possible not to know this.
Exactly. Just because in this particular instance the Bishop is choosing to speak about a certain subgroup, doesn’t mean he’s “singling anyone out” or discriminating against anyone. Certainly Fr. Martin ought to be able to understand this, since the New Ways Ministries cater to a certain subgroup, yet he has no problem with them.
Fr Martin ought to make crystal clear to his “followers” that we are ALL called to repentance and conversion towards God and away from sin, in this case, sins that the Catholic Church teaches to be sins. He is right in that one subgroup of unrepentant sinners is no better or worse than the next, yet when one FB follower asked him about what he means by “conversion”, he told her to wait for his next book.
You take Pope Francis’ words out of context. Who are you to think that he believes this is an instance that we ignore the objective evil and scandal being committed by solemnizing a same -sex union, which weakens our culture’s perception of the matrimonial bond?
Pope Francis certainly understand the devastation of what the normalization of state sanctioned same -sex marriage has caused and well cause. Please don’t take his words out of context, as he was in no way speaking about the funeral rites of those living in manifest and public grave sin in* Amoris Laetitia*.
Ted received one even though there were Catholics not pleased.
I think he believes himself a priest. He also thought his argument, not his person, was sound. But hey, ad hominem away.
The problem with this comparison is that canon law allows the local ordinary to decide what would create a scandal. So while one bishop may have allowed the Kennedy funeral, there is no reason to think Bishop Paprocki would have allowed it, and good reason to think he would not have allowed it it. Likewise, it is acceptable to question what the bishop is doing, as Fr. Martin did, as he is not defining any teaching. He is simply acting within his competence given him by canon law. Whether he is right or wrong will be addressed by God alone.
Scandal can occur in two ways: by the act itself which may lead others to copy it, and by the reaction to it, which can have the same effect. What is the message sent when those who flout the church’s doctrines are treated just the same as those who adhere to them? Beyond that, what does it say to those who publicly transgress her decrees? Is it to their benefit to imply that their souls are not really at risk because of their actions? We’re acting as if they’re being denied a piece of cake at a birthday party when what is truly at stake is a good bit more serious.
It is not our job to determine who goes where, but it is our job to help as many as possible end up with the sheep rather than the goats, and we surely don’t do that by behaving as if following church teaching is irrelevant or unimportant.
At that point they are beyond our influence; we can influence only the living, and we do that best by acting as if what the church teaches is true, and that it matters.
You overestimate the effect of prayers for the damned, as well as the harm to those who would otherwise deserve prayer yet failed to receive them, and you utterly ignore the harm to those caused by the scandal of celebrating a life lived in public defiance of the church.
The better case can be made that Ted should not have received a Catholic funeral, and denying him one would have gone a really long way in making the point that rejecting serious church teaching carries serious consequences.
The message I would see is that Catholics would be saying we are not going to judge the state of one’s spirituality at the moment they die and instead show some act of mercy and love and provide comfort for those left behind to mourn and leave the judgment part as to who was dammed or not at that point to God. No one is saying not to teach to the living what the Catholic Church believes to be true. What is being discussed is at the point of death. And yes sure I suppose it could be possible a funeral might be provided for someone who was dammed and prayers would not be helpful at that point. But who on earth knows. And at the same time a soul for which the prayers of the faithful might be of benefit would be missing out when Catholic funeral rites are denied. Between the two, I’d side with providing a funeral for reasons already discussed. But I know the Catholic Church is going to do what it is going to do.