Bishop punishes traditional/orthodox parish

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otm:
Hmm. Strange, one of the proposals herein was to have a traveling TLM, as it would expose more people to it, and engender more interest and demand… So you are saying that doesn’t work?
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I actually like the “traveling” TLM as it would accomplish those things. What we have in LA is the TLM at fixed parishes on specific Sundays of the month; only on the 1st Sunday is the TLM offered at more than one parish. If you would plot the TLM locations, you would see that several are on the outskirts of the archidocese. Given the traffic situation here, it is defintiely a hardship getting to most of the Masses (depending on where you live, of course). A “wide and generous application” it’s not.
 
I voted other. I think it should be totally up to the best judgement of the bishop.
 
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pnewton:
I voted other. I think it should be totally up to the best judgement of the bishop.
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I would agree except that most bishops don’t act in the best interest of saving souls.
The fact that bishops allow rainbow sashers to receive Holy Communion and allow numerous liturgical abuses while suppressing the Tridentine Mass shows these bishops are not following the directives of Pope John Paul II in Ecclesia Dei or the teachings of the Catholic Church.
I trust the judgment of Cardinal George, Archbishops Burke, Chaput and Dolan, Bishops Bruskiewitz and Doran. I have very little confidence in anyone else.
 
Swiss Guard said:
I would agree except that most bishops don’t act in the best interest of saving souls.
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And then there are the bishops that are acting in the interest of what makes the most money for the diocese and what is of the most popular opinion. Here in Orange County anything goes except the TLM especially if that something is going on in a parish that brings in a lot of money.

There are parishes in this diocese which are doing the following and nothing is being done:

Teens are still standing around the altar at the LifeTeen Mass in a parish in Newport Beach.

A priest that dresses up like the pope and rides in a golf cart that is made up to look like the Pope Mobile (for laughs)

Glass chalices used to contain and distribute the Precious Blood

The habitual use of EM’sHC sometimes as many as fifteen (this has been mandated by the bishop)
Priests and religious sisters telling Catholics that Homosexuals are born that way they can’t help it.
Allowing same sex couples to flaunt their lifestyle on a Catholic elementary school campus (this is still going on)
**A few months ago the Cathedral school in Orange invited the March of Dimes to teach their “Baby think it over” program to 8th graders. This program teaches condom use and sexual positions to children. **
An openly lesbian teacher in the position of head of theology at an all boys Catholic high school.
And the list goes on and on.
All these things are tolerated but traditional parishes are not.
 
Swiss Guard said:
I would agree except that most bishops don’t act in the best interest of saving souls.
I trust the judgment of Cardinal George, Archbishops Burke, Chaput and Dolan, Bishops Bruskiewitz and Doran. I have very little confidence in anyone else.
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It’s a poll. My opinion was based on and mirrors the way the Church currently operates. It is an imperfect system, but I do not see a better way. There is too much diversity of opinion to allow such decisions to be democratic.
 
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pnewton:
It’s a poll. My opinion was based on and mirrors the way the Church currently operates. It is an imperfect system, but I do not see a better way. There is too much diversity of opinion to allow such decisions to be democratic.
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**A universal indult is a better way, but that won’t happen because modernists like Mahony will oppose it and whine and cry to the sympathetic mainstream media that the pope is taking away their power. **
I’m all for taking power away from the likes of Mahony because of the harm they do to the Catholic Church.
 
Swiss Guard said:
**A universal indult is a better way, but that won’t happen because modernists like Mahony will oppose it and whine and cry to the sympathetic mainstream media that the pope is taking away their power. **
I’m all for taking power away from the likes of Mahony because of the harm they do to the Catholic Church.
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I find it very amusing for people to use words like “modernist” and "liberal’ not only incorrectly, but in attempts to denigrate others.

Cardinal Mahony is responsible for nearly 350 parishes. He shoulders this reponsibility with fewer priests than there are parishes. Even with a “universal indult” the Tridentine Mass wouldn’t be celebrated all that much if attendance was low (as it is now in the archdiocese) and it kept priests from celebrating Masses that would be far better attended.

I can see why Mahony is a lightning rod for those with an extremely shallow understanding of the demands facing the archdiocese, but to denigrate a Catholic Cardinal as a means to sell the idea of a universal indult is terribley lamentable.
 
Most understand there is a shortage of vocations, but often it is the leadership of the Bishop in charge that can make the situation even worse. The LA Archdiocese is a prime example, with only 5 priestly ordinations this year, with two of the newly ordained being over 60. This is in contrast with the Chicago archdiocese with 16 ordinations, plus one for the Chicago only Society of St John Cantius, even though the Chicago archdiocese is 1/2 the size.

Also, if other noted diocese in the US such as the NY Archdiocese and the Chicago archdiocese, and even the diocese of Richmond VA can support multiple indults, wht cant the LA archdiocese do so?
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Purificator:
I find it very amusing for people to use words like “modernist” and "liberal’ not only incorrectly, but in attempts to denigrate others.

Cardinal Mahony is responsible for nearly 350 parishes. He shoulders this reponsibility with fewer priests than there are parishes. Even with a “universal indult” the Tridentine Mass wouldn’t be celebrated all that much if attendance was low (as it is now in the archdiocese) and it kept priests from celebrating Masses that would be far better attended.

I can see why Mahony is a lightning rod for those with an extremely shallow understanding of the demands facing the archdiocese, but to denigrate a Catholic Cardinal as a means to sell the idea of a universal indult is terribley lamentable.
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Hey Crusader, aka Purifcator, please do not troll, how many IDs will you get banned from?
 
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Purificator:
I find it very amusing for people to use words like “modernist” and "liberal’ not only incorrectly, but in attempts to denigrate others.
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I’ve noticed the only people who object to the terms modernist or liberal are those who are modernist or liberal.
I lived in Chicago during the entire time Cardinal Bernardin was Archbishop of Chicago, so I know a modernist and a liberal when I see one. Cardinal Bernardin was a liberal in the true sense as it is understood in political terms, as he saw neither black or white but shades of gray. This is why he could celebrate a Mass for Dignity (which he conveniently renamed AGLO - Archdiocesean Gay and Lesbian Organization) and also celebrate a Latin Novus Ordo Mass at St. John Cantius.
The term is not used to denigrate someone, it’s to correctly state a person’s position on certain matters.
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Purificator:
Cardinal Mahony is responsible for nearly 350 parishes. He shoulders this reponsibility with fewer priests than there are parishes. Even with a “universal indult” the Tridentine Mass wouldn’t be celebrated all that much if attendance was low (as it is now in the archdiocese) and it kept priests from celebrating Masses that would be far better attended.
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Maybe attendance would pick up if he would keep it at one location? Or maybe have it at a time other than the middle of Sunday afternoon?
If you read my post carefully, which I can see you didn’t, I said that a parish where the priests and people want a Tridentine Mass the indult should be granted. If either party doesn’t want it, then there is no need to have one.
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Purificator:
I can see why Mahony is a lightning rod for those with an extremely shallow understanding of the demands facing the archdiocese, but to denigrate a Catholic Cardinal as a means to sell the idea of a universal indult is terribley lamentable.
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Let’s see, Cardinal Mahony allows the rainbow sash crowd to receive Holy Communion in defiance of Church teaching and I’m denigrating him???
Once again the tired “demands” or “needs” argument is used to justify a lack of orthodoxy. What are the “demands” of a bishop? TO SAVE SOULS!!! How is Cardinal Mahony doing this when he continues to go against the teachings of the Church he is entrusted to uphold???
Cardinal Mahony is a Call to Action type modernist who wants to make the Church into his image and likeness rather than make himself into the image and likeness of Christ.
You can complain all you want about the termonology I use, but you didn’t refute anything I said because it’s the truth. Like I said, I had 14 years of Cardinal Bernardin, so I know what Cardinal Mahony and is ilk are all about.
 
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JNB:
Most understand there is a shortage of vocations, but often it is the leadership of the Bishop in charge that can make the situation even worse. The LA Archdiocese is a prime example, with only 5 priestly ordinations this year, with two of the newly ordained being over 60. This is in contrast with the Chicago archdiocese with 16 ordinations, plus one for the Chicago only Society of St John Cantius, even though the Chicago archdiocese is 1/2 the size.

Also, if other noted diocese in the US such as the NY Archdiocese and the Chicago archdiocese, and even the diocese of Richmond VA can support multiple indults, wht cant the LA archdiocese do so?
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Chicago still has a long ways to go, but the situation is improving. Cardinal George has improved the academics at Mundelein, but he still needs to improve the formation.
The Society of St. John Cantius shouldn’t be looked at as Chicago only, as they have a chapel in Lawton, MI and have been welcomed into that diocese by Bishop Murray. They hope to become a religious order, so it isn’t fair to include the ordination of Fr. Brendan Gibson in with the rest of the archdiocese.
 
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JNB:
Hey Crusader, aka Purifcator, please do not troll, how many IDs will you get banned from?
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I was wondering what happened to Nota Bene. I see he was suspended under Pariah Pirana.
 
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JNB:
Most understand there is a shortage of vocations, but often it is the leadership of the Bishop in charge that can make the situation even worse. The LA Archdiocese is a prime example, with only 5 priestly ordinations this year, with two of the newly ordained being over 60. This is in contrast with the Chicago archdiocese with 16 ordinations, plus one for the Chicago only Society of St John Cantius, even though the Chicago archdiocese is 1/2 the size.

Also, if other noted diocese in the US such as the NY Archdiocese and the Chicago archdiocese, and even the diocese of Richmond VA can support multiple indults, wht cant the LA archdiocese do so?
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Likely because no one attends them…
 
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Kielbasi:
He might not be able to spare the people to do so. The Orange diocese might well have needed every hand available for the larger mainstream community.
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Sorry so late in responding to this…
This thinking is so common…

St. Mary’s has had a ‘visiting’ priest (from the Norbertine Abbey) to say one of their Sunday masses for the past 20 years. They’ve had ‘greats’ like Fr. Hugh Barbour, Fr. Steven Boyle, and now Fr. Luke ______ (sorry, can’t spell his last name). They (Norbertines) ALL (or at least ‘most’) know how to celebrate the Tridentine mass and love to. So, the tridentine could be said by the same priest who is celebrating the Novus Ordo.

And - you said the "diocese might well have needed every hand for the larger mainstream community". Why AGAIN, is it the people who love the Tridentine who must go without? Only ONE of the FIVE Sunday masses was Tridentine. And the church is no longer filled for ANY of them.

The Tridentine is a mass, too. It fulfills everyone’s Sunday obligation. What’s the 'larger mainstream’s" problem? THEY won’t go? THEY get what THEY want.

Sorry, I get a litte crazy about this way of thinking.

Another ridiculous response is, “we don’t have any priests who know how to celebrate the Tridentine”.

That sounds like a 5 year old’s answer. “I don’t know how.” (whine, whine) and dad is supposed to say, ‘SO LEARN!’

Where’s our dad? Problem is - we don’t have a dad - we have so many homosexual priests that if we removed them all **(**this is an exact quote from Fr. Joseph Fenton, Media Spokesperson for Bishop Tod Brown, Diocese of Orange) “if we did that, they’d be so few priests left, we’d have to turn the church over to lay people to run it.”

And how did that happen? Remember, it’s the bishop who imports or ordains the priests for the diocese.

Angel
 
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tpmjr42:
I actually like the “traveling” TLM as it would accomplish those things. What we have in LA is the TLM at fixed parishes on specific Sundays of the month; only on the 1st Sunday is the TLM offered at more than one parish. If you would plot the TLM locations, you would see that several are on the outskirts of the archidocese. Given the traffic situation here, it is defintiely a hardship getting to most of the Masses (depending on where you live, of course). A “wide and generous application” it’s not.
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Well, it does seem they got 1/2 of it right - wide…
 
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JNB:
Most understand there is a shortage of vocations, but often it is the leadership of the Bishop in charge that can make the situation even worse. The LA Archdiocese is a prime example, with only 5 priestly ordinations this year, with two of the newly ordained being over 60. This is in contrast with the Chicago archdiocese with 16 ordinations, plus one for the Chicago only Society of St John Cantius, even though the Chicago archdiocese is 1/2 the size.

Also, if other noted diocese in the US such as the NY Archdiocese and the Chicago archdiocese, and even the diocese of Richmond VA can support multiple indults, wht cant the LA archdiocese do so?
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Although the bishop, s leader can have some impact, he is one person trying to change the tide. The problem with vocations is one that runds deep and has numerous and long term causes. Put George or Chaput or Burke in LA, and I would guess that the change would not be statisticaly significant for some time.

Voctions will come where parishes are centered in prayer and the life of Christ. They may occur elsewere too, as the Spirit moves where He will; but the support system elsewhere is almost non-existent. I don’t think the bishop is going to have much impact on any one parish, if he has 300 or more to contend with; in fact, not much with 1/3 of that.
 
What is worse, valid but illicit or invalid but licit.

Golly, when faced with one of these two choices, I would take valid but illicit anyday !!!

(Just a thought, somewhat applicable to this thread)
 
Swiss Guard said:
**I’ve noticed the only people who object to the terms modernist or liberal are those who are modernist or liberal.**Perhaps because you label them such? I object, and you don’t know me well enough to be able to label me.
Both of those terms have some truth, and some judgementalism in them. I object because they are used as a dismissive label that is applied all too often simply because someone doesn’t like what is being said, not because what is being said is outside the parameters of tolerance the Church exercises.

I have seen Mahoney, for example, called a heretic within this forum, and I have seen the Church haul heretics to heel. Mahoney hasn’t been hauled.

You may not like him, but your charity might urge you to at least appear to be less judgemental.
Swiss Guard:
**I lived in Chicago during the entire time Cardinal Bernardin was Archbishop of Chicago, so I know a modernist and a liberal when I see one. Cardinal Bernardin was a liberal in the true sense as it is understood in political terms, as he saw neither black or white but shades of gray. **I have heard some definitions of the word 'liberal", but I have to admit that is a new one.
Swiss Guard:
Let’s see, Cardinal Mahony allows the rainbow sash crowd to receive Holy Communion in defiance of Church teaching and I’m denigrating him???
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Lets see, Cardinal McCarrik said that the Vatican’s response was very nuanced about the ability of the Church to deny Communion to, for example, a politician voting to sustain abortion. The same would apply to the rainbow sash wearers. Perhaps Cardinal Mahoney, being the bishop, may have communications to which you are not privileged, and has made the pastoral decision to not deny Comunion. Unless you know at least as much as the Cardinal does about the situation, is it possible that you do not know enough to adequately judge?

Or is it possible that Cardinal Mahoney has acted within the leeway of a pastoral decision the Rome allows, and you just disagree with his pastoral decision?
Swiss Guard:
a Call to Action type modernist who wants to make the Church into his image and likeness rather than make himself into the image and likeness of Christ.
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OK, I’ll agree with you, you are not being judgemental…

Except that where I come from, if it has feathers, and quacks like a duck, and flies, it is not a 'possum…
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Steve Green:
What is worse, valid but illicit or invalid but licit.

Golly, when faced with one of these two choices, I would take valid but illicit anyday !!!

(Just a thought, somewhat applicable to this thread)
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I have yet to see anything that was invalid but licit.

Having said that, in the United States, you are never faced with that choice. There is alwasy valid and licit available.
 
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