Bishop responds to Boy Scouts' decision on admission of homosexual members [CWN]

[pnewton]

I hope you are not right - and that the BSA remembers its own values and hews to them. And rids themselves of the 1991 and 2013 policies of LGBT discrimination.

The BSA also has “discrimated” against prostitutes, thievery, drugs and all manner of other sinful action. You are coming from the point of view that all sexual “orientation” is okey-dokey. The BSA is a hundred years old. Only in 2013 did the BSA adapt to this new idea that sexual perversion is simply a neutral thing.

It must really irk homosexual activists that the Catholic Church refuses to abandon God’s revelation for the demonic lie.

 

[gilliam]

Watch closely. This is how we git 'er done.

If your goal is to get the Southern Baptists and conservative Catholic churches to pull out their 100,000 boys, yea your on the right path. But removing boys from the program isn’t really a good goal.

 

[Dave_McGrath]

Of course you say nope, you don’t have any backup and guess what folks? There’s no work to do, you just want us to accept your word 11 year olds know their sexual orientation at that age? Yeah, this really makes sense. Should we take your word about anything??

I don’t think it is shown in this webpage either that the poster cited: apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

I see… so using this logic if you run a survey in Chief Seattle Council to find anyone willing to declare they are gay, but you end up with no self-identified gays, then there are no gays in Chief Seattle Council, right?

Help me - I am trying to understand what you are saying.

Peace.

 

[BroomWagon]

Frankly, me too. Also what a boy says at 11 may be very different than what he says at 12, 13, 14, 15 and/or 16

One of the purposes of the program is to help the boy formation during this period. So it really doesn’t matter to me much what he says when he is 11. That is why I am against kicking him out simply for telling me he is SSA (which is the current policy and why I advocated changing it.) You can’t help a boy if you shut the door in his face.

And if you have big deals about the sexual orientation of 11 year olds, there is no telling what one is getting themselves into.

 

[BroomWagon]

I see… so using this logic if you run a survey in Chief Seattle Council to find anyone willing to declare they are gay, but you end up with no self-identified gays, then there are no gays in Chief Seattle Council, right?

Help me - I am trying to understand what you are saying.
.

Kindly don’t say peace to me, that is reserved for people who debate civilly. You have not proven your point that 11 year olds know their sexual orientation and in fact, data seems to trend to the opposite, even to college age.

Again:

48% of self-identified gay and bisexual college students became aware of their sexual preference in high school while 26% found their true sexuality in college

20% of self-identified gay and bisexual men knew that they were gay or bisexual in junior high school, and 17% said they knew in grade school

6% of self-identified gay or bisexual women knew that they were gay or bisexual in junior high school, and 11% knew in grade school."

borngay.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000014

So at the very least, this question is not clear, yet you asserted it was clear.

I think this argument is over and won.

 

[Dave_McGrath]

Indeed Sir gilliam. I think that is the healthy way. Support the child’s character development as he discovers who he is. This the best of what our Boy Scouting program can offer America. This is why I am still a Boy Scout despite the policies of 1991 and 2013.

Thank you for your beautiful response.

Peace.

 

[BroomWagon]

The BSA also has “discrimated” against prostitutes, thievery, drugs and all manner of other sinful action. You are coming from the point of view that all sexual “orientation” is okey-dokey. The BSA is a hundred years old. Only in 2013 did the BSA adapt to this new idea that sexual perversion is simply a neutral thing.

It must really irk homosexual activists that the Catholic Church refuses to abandon God’s revelation for the demonic lie.

Beautifully stated, I don’t know if I’m against the change in policy, you wrote very wise words about following what the Bishops have said but at the same time, to be a bit wary and cautious and as you said, ultimately, it will be up to the Parent.

 

[Dave_McGrath]

If your goal is to get the Southern Baptists and conservative Catholic churches to pull out their 100,000 boys, yea your on the right path. But removing boys from the program isn’t really a good goal.

No. That is not my goal. But I think that fear isn’t rational.

For example, despite the LDS people’s utter horror at the idea, the reality is not one scout troop is gone from them (probably because of extraordinarily tight centralized control.)

The Southern Baptists are less centrally controlled. However, they utilize the BSA program to exercise The Great Commission. Sure there is a lot of noise - but they only represent 5.6% of BSA. And that isn’t very much. Some will leave. I have a bet 5% of the 5.6% of the total will leave. This will be offset by people like me: people in Red America willing to sponsor and participate with new packs/troops/teams/posts when we fell into inactivity after the SCOTUS case of Dale v BSA 2000. 5% of 5.6% isn’t very much.

At this point, there isn’t a single instance shown that any boy or troop who needs a sponsoring organization hasn’t been able to find one.

So no. I don’t think the fear of loss of membership is reasonable. We’ve dropped 30% in the last 20 years anyway. Maybe this will help? I think it will.

Peace

 

[BroomWagon]

No. That is not my goal. But I think that fear isn’t rational.

For example, despite the LDS people’s utter horror at the idea, the reality is not one scout troop is gone from them (probably because of extraordinarily tight centralized control.)

The Southern Baptists are less centrally controlled. However, they utilize the BSA program to exercise The Great Commission. Sure there is a lot of noise - but they only represent 5.6% of BSA. And that isn’t very much. Some will leave. I have a bet 5% of the 5.6% of the total will leave. This will be offset by people like me: people in Red America willing to sponsor and participate with new packs/troops/teams/posts when we fell into inactivity after the SCOTUS case of Dale v BSA 2000. 5% of 5.6% isn’t very much.

At this point, there isn’t a single instance shown that any boy or troop who needs a sponsoring organization hasn’t been able to find one.

So no. I don’t think the fear of loss of membership is reasonable. We’ve dropped 30% in the last 20 years anyway. Maybe this will help? I think it will.

Peace

Wow, great to have figures cited, just not any on 11 year olds expressing their sexual orientation, then it is to do the work ourselves! At the least, there is no clear proof of this it needs to be reiterated and the figures seem to trend for older ages.

 

[BroomWagon]

As said before, on the issue of gay rights, Mormons may see same sex marriage as a gateway to polygamy, thus, they can acquiesce but if Mormons are the biggest interest groups, BSA must not be that big to begin with.

 

[pnewton]

We worship at the altar of principle, not policy.

Peace.

Actually, we prefer to worship at the altar where Heaven is joined to Earth and listen to God as opposed to the APA.

 

[gilliam]

No. That is not my goal. But I think that fear isn’t rational.

For example, despite the LDS people’s utter horror at the idea, the reality is not one scout troop is gone from them (probably because of extraordinarily tight centralized control.)

Yes Dave, that is why.

The Southern Baptists are less centrally controlled. However, they utilize the BSA program to exercise The Great Commission. Sure there is a lot of noise - but they only represent 5.6% of BSA. And that isn’t very much. Some will leave. I have a bet 5% of the 5.6% of the total will leave. This will be offset by people like me: people in Red America willing to sponsor and participate with new packs/troops/teams/posts when we fell into inactivity after the SCOTUS case of Dale v BSA 2000. 5% of 5.6% isn’t very much.

I seriously doubt only 5% of the Baptists will leave if the So. Baptist Convention recommends pulling troops next week (as they most likely will.)

At this point, there isn’t a single instance shown that any boy or troop who needs a sponsoring organization hasn’t been able to find one.

I know of a number of instances where the whole unit voted to leave. Some are going to alternate organizations. The So. Baptists Convention is also likely to recommend So. Baptist units migrate to Royal Rangers.

So no. I don’t think the fear of loss of membership is reasonable. We’ve dropped 30% in the last 20 years anyway. Maybe this will help? I think it will.

We are very likely to drop 10-20% in the next 12 months. Your political actions are not helpful.

 

[Dave_McGrath]

Kindly don’t say peace to me, that is reserved for people who debate civilly. You have not proven your point that 11 year olds know their sexual orientation and in fact, data seems to trend to the opposite, even to college age.

Again:

So at the very least, this question is not clear, yet you asserted it was clear.

I think this argument is over and won.

Indeed. And you won it by finding data which proved the point. Children can know they are gay. It also appears to be a process.

I don’t remember who’s point it was. Not keeping score. But I appreciate you finding the data.

Thank you.

Peace

 

[Dave_McGrath]

Beautifully stated, I don’t know if I’m against the change in policy, you wrote very wise words about following what the Bishops have said but at the same time, to be a bit wary and cautious and as you said, ultimately, it will be up to the Parent.

Except the mixing of “orientation” versus “behavior.”

The poster above listed sinful behavior: “prostitution, thievery, drugs and all manner of other sinful action.”

It is the separation and understanding of this where the beauty lies.

Peace.

 

[BroomWagon]

Frankly, me too. Also what a boy says at 11 may be very different than what he says at 12, 13, 14, 15 and/or 16

One of the purposes of the program is to help the boy formation during this period. So it really doesn’t matter to me much what he says when he is 11. That is why I am against kicking him out simply for telling me he is SSA (which is the current policy and why I advocated changing it.) You can’t help a boy if you shut the door in his face.

May not matter to you what he says but rules are rules. The question remains can an 11 year old even know this?

Could activists trip up a religious sponsor in this way? Seems similar things have happened elsewhere and if that road is gone down, no telling what can be in store.

 

[BroomWagon]

Indeed. And you won it by finding data which proved the point. Children can know they are gay. It also appears to be a process.

I don’t remember who’s point it was. Not keeping score. But I appreciate you finding the data.

Thank you.
snipped

Don’t put words in my mouth, there is no such data. Your assertion is just that, it’s not a solid proven scientific fact. No gay gene has been found yet.

A national survey of 1,752 college students found:

48% of self-identified gay and bisexual college students became aware of their sexual preference in high school while 26% found their true sexuality in college

20% of self-identified gay and bisexual men knew that they were gay or bisexual in junior high school, and 17% said they knew in grade school

6% of self-identified gay or bisexual women knew that they were gay or bisexual in junior high school, and 11% knew in grade school."

borngay.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000014

This says the opposite in fact.

 

[BroomWagon]

Except the mixing of “orientation” versus “behavior.”

The poster above listed sinful behavior: “prostitution, thievery, drugs and all manner of other sinful action.”

It is the separation and understanding of this where the beauty lies.

Peace.

But that separation doesn’t apply when marching in parades. Okay.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Campaign number 2??

Wow, this really smacks of activism if you are advocating this. . .

. . . The same reason why I chose to reference these two individuals depicted on the FOX 13 News video linked earlier, directly with the homosexual lobby - *regardless of whether they are personally homosexual or not *, - it’s irrelevant. They are all advocating the active homosexual lifestyle both tacitly and explicitly.

I am not gay. Peter Brownstein told me he’s not gay. I believe him.

I read the articles – I’m aware Peter Brownstein has a son , which is why I posted
(highlights mine)

This is not the type of Scoutmaster who can be trusted . . . need we add “with anyone else’s children” ?

If you have a problem with the way you are being depicted in the media, you either need to make a personal adjustment when you appear in public, or tell FOX 13 news to make the adjustment. I don’t edit their videos for them and I go with the information provided. Here’s the link again: fox13now.com/2013/06/02/boy-scouts-in-uniform-march-in-utah-pride-parade/#ooid=VyODU0YzoC1tQDCggv0R4faa7UzB785k?utm_source=publish2&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=www.kpbs.org

In that report, you are listed as ” former scoutmaster” , you were in uniform - that is the total amount of credentials listed. . . and to date, this thread offers no substantiation that there are any other credentials to take into consideration:shrug:

And I wrote down the transcript:

“We’re thrilled with what happened last week . . .”

You don’t represent BSA because they issued a directive that no uniforms were to be worn at the gay pride parade .

You were at a gay pride parade, marching in the parade, in uniform, and you definitely said on camera“We are thrilled. . . “ “We” implies a group. If you don’t represent Scouting, then there aren’t a whole lot of other options left – are there ?

You placed yourself squarely within the gay activists. . . the homosexual lobby: As their active supporter hence an agent for the promotion of active homosexuality , it is reasonable that you would be perceived this way. I’m not going to spend half my life trying to come up with politically correct labels that are half a mile long. Neither do I believe *thought crimes *to be a valid stance regarding the gay militants agenda. If you were really concerned about that image, you should’ve spoken with FOX 13 News. It appears more like you’ve come to CAF to *save *and convert us .

Haven’t you heard ? Our Blessed Lord is the one in charge of that directive; and He allows for no compromise of the truth , no deception, no sophistry.

 

[NeedImprovement]

So if they prefer, advocates of homosexual activism or promoters of the homosexual agenda rather than homosexual activists , it begins to get a little lengthy, but I guess I’m fine with that. In WW II the French had a rather apropos connotation for those who slept with the Nazis – they were called *** les Collaborateurs .***

The fact is, that whether advocates of homosexual activism or promoters of the homosexual agenda or homosexual activists or * gay militants* they all end up in the same can because all are working directly for the same cause . . . and trying to deny it in a forum, doesn’t change one iota of the truth.

The homosexual agenda presupposes moral relativism to justify their inversion of values. And they’re getting away with this, so far, because of an induced vote ; yet voting has very little to do with the truth.

“It is a mistake to apply American democratic procedures to the faith and the truth,” the pope said in response to his critics. “You cannot take a vote on the truth.”

Venerable Pope John Paul II

home.netcom.com/~mdmiguel/popequotes.htm

But while the subject of extraordinarily lengthy labels is still fresh in the mind , I personally would’ve thought a much easier, more accurate way to say

Indeed. I am running seven different simultaneous operations to try to help BSA understand that the correct thing (the moral thing) to do is to wrap their heads around this and get with the program . . .

Would be simply: “I’m run seven different protest operations which defy the authority of BSA “

“Dissenter” would sum it up nicely without all the fluff.

And an easier way to say this one :

Indeed. I am running seven different simultaneous operations to try to help BSA understand that the correct thing (the moral thing) to do is to wrap their heads around this and get with the program. The pain stops when they abolish the 1991 policy and the abomination of 2013.
And say: “I’m sorry.”

. . . is , just : “guilt trip”.

I’m Sorry guys, but I don’t see any new arguments on the thread up to & including the most recent post # 588 - just the same old same old :

" I grant myself permission to indoctrinate other people’s children with the homosexual agenda (just like they do to the very young ones in the schools) and to trample on other parents’ sacred inalienable rights as to how they desire to raise their own children . Period ! "

. . . May check in later if time permits.

---

@ BroomWagon : . . . Makes good solid sense. I’ve been neglecting prayer lately so it’s time to catch up a little (will say several for you guys too and for scouting in general – Lord knows they need it.)

Later . . .

God bless guys.

 

[Brendan]

The term Scouting is trademarked by the BSA; so it would make sense that the NCCS term is also trademarked by the BSA. But the committee is not owned by the BSA. The NCCS is an independent group with a liaison to the National Catholic Committee on Scouting and a priest chaplain. If bishops wanted to setup a group to assist with your organization, Cat Herder, they can do so and just call it something else.

Or simply disband the NCCS and create a liaison that covers ALL Catholic boy units using the Baden-Powel method. Or even more expansive, groups like Columbian Squires as well.