Bishop responds to Boy Scouts' decision on admission of homosexual members [CWN]

[PaulinVA]

So, this is an interesting discussion.

Why does a gay person need to tell people that they are attracted to people of the same sex? Why is that some sort of imperative? It’s like they are not real if they don’t tell people. Can’t a scout just be a scout?

Secondly, what’s up with many gay men thinking that they have to affect this super-flaming-gay persona? It’s almost like they are trying to create a third gender.

 

[on_the_hill]

Heterosexuals usually do not flaunt the fact that they are having premarital sex. They usually do not have an immoral agenda to push on innocent youth.

Oh, yes they (we?) do. Look at all the TV shows and movies about teenagers and sex. Magazines, celebrities, music videos.

True, they’re not pushing a morality-based agenda, they’re lining their pockets. Sex sells.

 

[on_the_hill]

“It’s already bad, so let us assent to a policy that makes it worse” is a fallacy.

My point is that the policy doesn’t expose youngsters to any more of a risk than they already face. No “gay” teenager is going to think, ‘Now that I’m allowed to be a Scout, I can molest other boys.’ The dangerous Scout is likely already a member. There’s no honor among thieves.

Our walking away from it only gives them more influence. I see the point, though, that the BSA may no longer represent your interests, and once the horse is out of the barn, etc.

I’m willing to bet that most Troops looked the other way if a “gay” Scout was a member, so maybe the BSA decided to recognize what’s been happening all along.

 

[Fairwinds]

So, this is an interesting discussion.

Why does a gay person need to tell people that they are attracted to people of the same sex? Why is that some sort of imperative? It’s like they are not real if they don’t tell people. Can’t a scout just be a scout?

Secondly, what’s up with many gay men thinking that they have to affect this super-flaming-gay persona? It’s almost like they are trying to create a third gender.

when people are hip deep in conspiracy theory, its hard to rein in the stereotypes: every Scout currently enrolled is saintly, without a sexual thought in his head; every gay is a card-carrying NAMBLA flamer; a veritable Floode of gay boys is ready to rush the gates and turn each tribe (pack? group? squadron?) into a sodomite hellhole.

 

[NeedImprovement]

The new policy admits “openly gay” youth. How do you interpret “openly gay”? Have you ever heard the term “openly straight”? No. Heterosexuals usually do not flaunt the fact that they are having premarital sex. They usually do not have an immoral agenda to push on innocent youth. So, yes, the heterosexual having sex outside of marriage is committing a sin as is the homosexual having…(can’t be called marital relations, or sex for that matter)…whatever activity. Neither belong in scouting, neither belong in the presence of children.
A heterosexual discussing or flaunting his sexual history would be disciplined and likely removed from the troop. What makes you think he would not be?

Have you noticed some of the arguments still attempt to make it appear like a two-way street - not unlike this term “sexual orientation” ? But they still keep tiptoeing around the most obvious question. Whether actively homosexual or sexually active youth have engaged in premarital sex or not :

• a) What are the chances that a youth who experiences a very magnetic attraction to girls is going to act upon those urges when he is exclusively among boys ?
• b) What are the chances that an openly homosexual youth who feels a magnetic (whatever it is they feel) towards boys is going to act upon those urges when he is exclusively among boys ?

 

[fix]

I like putting a good face on a bad situation.

I understand why people are upset. For me, I am concerned that reacting too much just plays right into the “gay agenda.” If we react as though this is an earth-shattering change in policy, we give credence to the interpretation that the policy change is earth-shattering. That’s exactly what the proponents want people to see it as. They want people to read into this. They want people to view this as a sign of things to come. They want people to view further changes as inevitable. And they want committed Christians to leave the Boy Scouts in droves and leave them defenseless against further policy changes. And from what I’ve read, many Christians are following the script perfectly.

In reality, it is not so great a victory for “gay rights” as the media would have us believe. They could have allowed for gay leaders. They could have worded it such that “open and overt” homosexuals could be members. They didn’t do that.

I think it’s very reasonable to look at the silver lining in this situation. That’s the only way we’re going to be able to hold the line and prevent the Boy Scouts from being an organization that Catholics cannot join.

I prefer I more straight forward interpretation. The change was not needed. It was political. The change is going in the wrong direction. Catholics very much want to salvage this for reasons I do not fully understand. They can make a case on paper that the change in some way does not violate Church teaching by being vague and general about the policy. Reassurances are given. When pointed specific questions are raised they are glossed over or nuanced in some way.

I guess a basic question is why is the BSA so critical to Catholics?

 

[Momofmyangels]

Oh, yes they (we?) do. Look at all the TV shows and movies about teenagers and sex. Magazines, celebrities, music videos.

True, they’re not pushing a morality-based agenda, they’re lining their pockets. Sex sells.

And…this should occur in an organization with children?

 

[Fairwinds]

we simply must purge the scouts of any Deviant thought or sin: hetero, homo, mortal, venial, major, minor. only the cleanest and purest of heart should wear the uniform. after all, this isn’t the Church where sinners are tolerated by the Righteous. This Is The Scouts.

 

[Momofmyangels]

you haven’t been in many boys/mens locker rooms (I hope), guys talk about sex a lot. this isn’t the case all the time, or with every team, but its totally unremarkable when it happens.

no, they’re just talking about sex.

perhaps a scout could assure us that teenage boys do not talk about sex.

I’m not naive enough to think it is not discussed. I meant discussed to the extent of urging others to agree with it, to accept it without question, and force those who disagree to agree, basically…to forget morality!

 

[Fairwinds]

I’m not naive enough to think it is not discussed. I meant discussed to the extent of urging others to agree with it, to accept it without question, and force those who disagree to agree, basically…to forget morality!

I find your arguments convincing. that is why I now urge that the Scouts carefully interrogate each member to locate and then root out all sinners and deviants.

 

[Momofmyangels]

we simply must purge the scouts of any Deviant thought or sin: hetero, homo, mortal, venial, major, minor. only the cleanest and purest of heart should wear the uniform. after all, this isn’t the Church where sinners are tolerated by the Righteous. This Is The Scouts.

Is that what is being discussed? The bottom line here is, this is an organization for children. When children are involved, there must be different standards than exists for adult organizations. Are we teaching children to judge, chastise, shun, or hate others? Hopefully, we can all answer, no. We should all be teaching them to love their neighbor, which does not mean we expose them to all manner of immorality and act as though it is ok.

 

[Momofmyangels]

Have you noticed some of the arguments still attempt to make it appear like a two-way street - not unlike this term “sexual orientation” ? But they still keep tiptoeing around the most obvious question. Whether actively homosexual or sexually active youth have engaged in premarital sex or not :

• a) What are the chances that a youth who experiences a very magnetic attraction to girls is going to act upon those urges when he is exclusively among boys ?
• b) What are the chances that an openly homosexual youth who feels a magnetic (whatever it is they feel) towards boys is going to act upon those urges when he is exclusively among boys ?

I guess only time will answer these questions. With all the unknowns, and the lack of response to get these unknowns answered, it would seem to be too great a risk to take.

 

[Fairwinds]

…Are we teaching children to judge, chastise, shun, or hate others? …

good question.

 

[PaulinVA]

we simply must purge the scouts of any Deviant thought or sin: hetero, homo, mortal, venial, major, minor. only the cleanest and purest of heart should wear the uniform. after all, this isn’t the Church where sinners are tolerated by the Righteous. This Is The Scouts.

Wow. You sorta turned into a snarkasourus this afternoon! I won’t be responding.

 

[Fairwinds]

Wow. You sorta turned into a snarkasourus this afternoon! I won’t be responding.

thank you for the charitable remarks.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

The problem is not that there are gay youth in the scouts. The problem is that the BSA changed its code of moral law. The Catholic Church is the same. The BSA is not.

The BSA hasn’t actually changed it’s code of morals, holding hands is still a against policy, hugging is still against policy, sex is still against policy (even if they are Venturers above 18 and married to each other) and other things.

The new policy admits “openly gay” youth. How do you interpret “openly gay”? Have you ever heard the term “openly straight”? No. Heterosexuals usually do not flaunt the fact that they are having premarital sex. They usually do not have an immoral agenda to push on innocent youth. So, yes, the heterosexual having sex outside of marriage is committing a sin as is the homosexual having…(can’t be called marital relations, or sex for that matter)…whatever activity. Neither belong in scouting, neither belong in the presence of children.
A heterosexual discussing or flaunting his sexual history would be disciplined and likely removed from the troop. What makes you think he would not be?

Having often heard both males and females discuss casual sex that they engaged in that isn’t really a true statement, that said I don’t hear it (much) in Scouting environments as it is against policy.

you haven’t been in many boys/mens locker rooms (I hope), guys talk about sex a lot. this isn’t the case all the time, or with every team, but its totally unremarkable when it happens.

no, they’re just talking about sex.

perhaps a scout could assure us that teenage boys do not talk about sex.

Boys do talk about sex, I started hearing about it in middle school.

So, this is an interesting discussion.

Why does a gay person need to tell people that they are attracted to people of the same sex? Why is that some sort of imperative? It’s like they are not real if they don’t tell people. Can’t a scout just be a scout?

Secondly, what’s up with many gay men thinking that they have to affect this super-flaming-gay persona? It’s almost like they are trying to create a third gender.

They don’t, the major purpose of this is so they don’t need to carefully phrase everything they say to make sure no one figures it out and so if they get outed they don’t kicked out.

They don’t, you don’t notice most gay people because their behaviour falls within normal.

Have you noticed some of the arguments still attempt to make it appear like a two-way street - not unlike this term “sexual orientation” ? But they still keep tiptoeing around the most obvious question. Whether actively homosexual or sexually active youth have engaged in premarital sex or not :

• a) What are the chances that a youth who experiences a very magnetic attraction to girls is going to act upon those urges when he is exclusively among boys ?
• b) What are the chances that an openly homosexual youth who feels a magnetic (whatever it is they feel) towards boys is going to act upon those urges when he is exclusively among boys ?

the phrase sexual orientation isn’t directly deconstructable.

a) zero
b) lower than you think, especially if the rules prohibit it.

 

[gilliam]

The following is from the BSA:

---

**1. Is the BSA endorsing homosexuality and forcing its chartered organizations to do the same? **

No. That is not the role of the organizations, and Scouting is not the place to resolve divergent viewpoints in society. By reinforcing that Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting, and that no member may use Scouting to promote or advance any social or political position or agenda, this policy rightly recognizes there is a difference between kids and adults while remaining true to the long-standing virtues of Scouting.

**2. If a chartered organization does not agree with allowing gay members, can it deny them membership or defer them to another unit? **

No. Effective Jan. 1, 2014, no youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone. However, any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting. As they always have, chartered organizations can require members to demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law.

**3. How does the BSA define “morally straight”? **

The BSA handbook defines morally straight as, “Scouts should be clean in speech and actions and faithful in religious beliefs,” and a clean Scout as “someone who keeps his body and mind fit, chooses friends who also live by high standards, and helps keep his home and community clean.” Any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.

**4. Why was the policy amended only to include youth and not adults? **

The review confirmed that this remains among the most complex and challenging issues facing the BSA and society today. Even with the wide range of (name removed by moderator)ut, it was extremely difficult to accurately quantify the potential impact of maintaining or changing the current policy. While perspectives and opinions vary significantly, parents, adults in the Scouting community, and teens alike tend to agree that youth should not be denied the benefits of Scouting.

**5. What will you do when a youth member becomes an adult? **

When a member is no longer a youth participant, he or she must meet the requirements of our adult standards.

 

[gilliam]

Catholic leaders urge support for Boy Scouts after shift on gays
http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...37d432-ca2a-11e2-9cd9-3b9a22a4000a_print.html

 

[Kamaduck]

Are we teaching children to judge, chastise, shun, or hate others? Hopefully, we can all answer, no.

…maybe?

What are we trying to do by isolating them from those who admit to having SSA? I don’t think it’s likely that children are going to start sexually forcing themselves on others when the rules expressly prohibit it.

I’m also wondering- if we’re not going to allow “openly gay” people into scouts on the grounds that it will tempt them, are we also kicking them off sports teams? Locker rooms, you know. How about making them take separate gym classes? Why are we not up in arms about these things?

 

[zab]

…maybe?

What are we trying to do by isolating them from those who admit to having SSA? I don’t think it’s likely that children are going to start sexually forcing themselves on others when the rules expressly prohibit it.

I’m also wondering- if we’re not going to allow “openly gay” people into scouts on the grounds that it will tempt them, are we also kicking them off sports teams? Locker rooms, you know. How about making them take separate gym classes? Why are we not up in arms about these things?

A youth admitting that he has a same sex attraction is not the same as defining himself as gay. If a Scout identifies himself as gay, it is an implication that he intends to live out that lifestyle at some point in the future, and that is against the BSA code when it comes to allowing gay leaders. What kind of confusion must this send to the boy. The concern that many people have is that there could be many factors leading to a same sex attraction that do not automatically mean that he is gay. The old code was compatible with Church Teaching, the new code is not.