Bishop responds to Boy Scouts' decision on admission of homosexual members [CWN]

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To clarify, you are saying if person A tells something in confidence to person B and person B tells no one then that is okay, but if person A tells something in confidence to person B then person B tells person C about that thing then person A should get expelled. Am I understanding you correctly?
It doesn’t matter. Person A, a child and Boy Scout, talked about sex to another Boy Scout during a Scouting activity. So he is gone regardless of his “confidences” because Scouting is (was) not an appropriate place to discuss sex.
 
It is false to say the “BSA is forcing Catholic units to affirm homosexuality as a moral life choice” as homosexuality isn’t an action, it is the state of being attracted (exclusively) to the same sex.
You have homosexuality confused with same sex attraction. Homosexuality is willed and desired by the person, SSA is not. I am going to stop replying to you because you insist on using graphic and disgusting language.
 
It doesn’t matter. Person A, a child and Boy Scout, talked about sex to another Boy Scout during a Scouting activity. So he is gone regardless of his “confidences” because Scouting is (was) not an appropriate place to discuss sex.
This is…not worth responding to.
 
It doesn’t matter. Person A, a child and Boy Scout, talked about sex to another Boy Scout during a Scouting activity. So he is gone regardless of his “confidences” because Scouting is (was) not an appropriate place to discuss sex.
That’s absurd. If a boy tells another boy that he likes boys, that is not discussing sex. If you think it is, why aren’t we kicking out all of the heterosexual boys who admit to liking girls?
You have homosexuality confused with same sex attraction. Homosexuality is willed and desired by the person, SSA is not. I am going to stop replying to you because you insist on using graphic and disgusting language.
There is no difference between having SSA exclusively and being homosexual. I’m only using the word term “SSA” because I don’t think it’s wise to define people by their orientations.
Explicit description of sexual acts worthy of a public middle school, which is why my children will never go to one.
Nothing Dakota Roberts said (that I can find) is inappropriate for this forum. It also bears little resemblance to how public school children speak of sex or rape.
 


It is false to say the “BSA is forcing Catholic units to affirm homosexuality as a moral life choice” as homosexuality isn’t an action, it is the state of being attracted (exclusively) to the same sex.

The word also means behavior or action.

ho·mo·sex·u·al·i·ty (hm-sksh-l-t, -m-)
n.
  1. Sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.
  2. Sexual activity with another of the same sex.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Thesaurus Legend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Noun
  1. homosexuality - a sexual attraction to (or sexual relations with) persons of the same sex
Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2012 Princeton University, Farlex Inc.

… the same way “gay” or “gayness” is being confined to just attraction, not the action, by homosexual advocates, when it is likewise understood to have a dual meaning or application by society.

Manipulation of words and language in this area started with the selling of the sexual orientation construct. As if homosexual orientation is distant, not proximal, or opposite to homosexual action.
 
That’s absurd. If a boy tells another boy that he likes boys, that is not discussing sex. If you think it is, why aren’t we kicking out all of the heterosexual boys who admit to liking girls?
Why are they talking about liking girls during a Scouting activity? As a unit commissioner I would have disciplined any boy who was snarking about so and so in his math class being hot when he was supposed to be tying knots. That sort of talk is distracting to the boys and demeaning to the girls.
There is no difference between having SSA exclusively and being homosexual.
False. SSA does not involve a choice; homosexuality does. People can have invasive homosexual thoughts, but they are not actually homosexual unless they DESIRE those thoughts or ACT on them. Again, read the Catechism.
I’m only using the word term “SSA” because I don’t think it’s wise to define people by their orientations.
You should define them by their choices.
Nothing Dakota Roberts said (that I can find) is inappropriate for this forum. It also bears little resemblance to how public school children speak of sex or rape.
I am not going to use the anatomical words here precisely because they are inappropriate to this discussion, and both of you should refrain from doing so as well.
 
Ages 7, 10, and 14. 🙂
I sincerely hope you aren’t one of those persons who doesn’t catechize their children because they think it is better for them to be “open minded.” That attitude is how we lost the West.
 
P.S. This is quickly turning into a “let’s pile on against Cat Herder” thread. I have a life, so I would appreciate it if another dissenter could take the reigns for a while. Thanks.
 
I sincerely hope you aren’t one of those persons who doesn’t catechize their children because they think it is better for them to be “open minded.” That attitude is how we lost the West.
Oh, heavens no. We attend Mass every Sunday, they go to CCD (which, I’ll agree is near enough to “not being catechized.”), altar serve, participate in other parish services, etc. And if anything, they’re going to be more open minded than I am simply because I’m *not *particularly open minded.

I’ll just say this, and join you on the sidelines: On a one-to-one, person-to-person day-in-day-out level, Scouts will not be in any more danger than they have been over the past 100 years.

I’ll agree that there is a danger that our moral code is at risk, on a higher philosophical level. In my own family, I have an “active” gay cousin, and my wife has an “active” lesbian cousin, my sister’s husband has a “married” lesbian sister. For better or for worse, we have shielded our kids from their lives. I don’t approve of them, my wife doesn’t approve of them, my sister and her husband don’t approve of them. My kids have never met my cousin, they haven’t seen my wife’s cousin for several years.

So it’s not like we’re loose about these issues. All right, 'nuff said. Time for me to trim dead branches from a backyard tree. 😛
 
I apologize if it feels like we are ganging up on you, Cat Herder. That was not my intention. 😦
Why are they talking about liking girls during a Scouting activity? As a unit commissioner I would have disciplined any boy who was snarking about so and so in his math class being hot when he was supposed to be tying knots. That sort of talk is distracting to the boys and demeaning to the girls.
I assume, then, that it’s fine to discuss one’s sexual orientation outside of the context of scouting. If it should become common knowledge that a scout has SSA due to something said outside of a scouting context, they should not be forced to leave. In fact, even if it’s in a scouting context, you may “discipline” them if their words are inappropriate, but why force them to leave the scouts?
False. SSA does not involve a choice; homosexuality does. People can have invasive homosexual thoughts, but they are not actually homosexual unless they DESIRE those thoughts or ACT on them. Again, read the Catechism.
OK. I’m also going to post part of it here:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

You are correct that the Catechism uses the word “homosexualtiy” to refer to homosexual actions. I don’t think it always means that in common speech. The question then becomes: is the BSA policy using the word in the same way? According to post #256:

“The BSA handbook defines morally straight as, “Scouts should be clean in speech and actions and faithful in religious beliefs,” and a clean Scout as “someone who keeps his body and mind fit, chooses friends who also live by high standards, and helps keep his home and community clean.” Any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.

Based on this, I think the BSA policy is in fact talking about those who merely have SSA, not those who are acting on their disordered desires. If a scout is not acting on their desires or being distracting, I don’t think they should be excluded.
You should define them by their choices.
I agree.
I am not going to use the anatomical words here precisely because they are inappropriate to this discussion, and both of you should refrain from doing so as well.
I disagree that it is inappropriate, but will refrain for your sake.
 
Perhaps they are being myopic, since they changed the policy to allow for avowed homosexuals, but made no similar provisions for avowed bdsm fetishists, avowed masturbators, avowed kleptomaniacs, or other disordered tendencies, even though those tendencies may never be acted upon. Everybody has disordered tendencies, but most will just have to keep quiet about them.
Very good. The homosexual activists demand you see this their way. This is a special issue unlike all other dis-orientation. It gets special treatment, special politics, special pressure, and even special terminology.
 
OK. I’m also going to post part of it [the Catechism] here:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Based on this, I think the BSA policy is in fact talking about those who merely have SSA, not those who are acting on their disordered desires. If a scout is not acting on their desires or being distracting, I don’t think they should be excluded.
I think we are just talking over each others’ heads here; let me reset and let’s see if we can understand each other.

The big unworkable problem with allowing openly gay boys into Catholic units of the Boy Scouts of America is this:

It creates the near occasion of grave sin under the sponsorship of the Catholic Church.

This is why. In BSA, all boys camp, shower, etc. together. Suppose you have a 15 year old Girl Scout and a 17 year old Boy Scout. Are you going to allow them to do all that together? No way. Even if you take every precaution short of separating them by gender, you still have the near occasion of grave sin. They are going to see each other naked or nearly naked; and they are going to be in close space to each other in that state without adult supervision (adults cannot sleep with children in BSA for obvious reasons). So you would do what Camp Fire USA, which is coeducational, does–they make an exception to coeducation when it comes to camping.

The problem, however, is that we are dealing with only boys. You can’t do a Camp Fire solution here unless you are going to inquire into the sexual orientation of each boy. If you do that, everyone in the troop will know that Scout X is gay. Just as if he was a girl among boys in Camp Fire, he gets a separate gay shower, a separate gay tent, and you will not be able to avoid constantly acknowledging, throughout the program, that Scout X is gay. And you must do this for EACH gay Scout. Now putting aside all the embarrassment that inflicts on Scout X, here is another problem: How on earth are you, as a Catholic Scoutmaster, going to address the morality of homosexuality? If you say nothing, you are affirming his lifestyle as NORMAL when the Catechism says that it DISORDERED. So what are you going to say? Are you going to quote the Catechism? It’s going to sound something like this:

“Now boys, Scout X is gay. Our tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. But he is struggling with his attraction to boys and he is trying very hard to avoid committing any homosexual acts. He is not a sinner just because he is gay, because he is making his best effort to control himself. But that is why he has to have his own shower and his own tent. And all of you need to understand, respect and welcome him.”

Do you really think that this is going to work? And even if it does, how do you think this makes Scout X himself feel? Is this helpful for the salvation of Scout X?

And it gets worse. BSA has already said, or at least implied, that they are not going to indemnify chartered organizations (read: your parish and its staff) for restricting access to BSA activities on the basis of sexual orientation. What if Scout X says that your “Scout X is different” talk, and your accommodations for him, discriminate against him? He’ll complain to National, and so you won’t be allowed to talk about what the Catechism says. Well… Is this helpful for the salvation of Scout X?

And it still gets worse. You have done your level best to accommodate Scout X, insulate him from near occasions of sin (intimate contact with other boys), and so on. The problem is, there are other troops at your camp and not all of them are Catholic. They may or may not go through all of the steps you have gone through to protect homosexual boys from temptation and intimidation. And these boys, with sexual orientation unknown, will be constantly commingling with Scout X and all of the other boys in your troop.

This is just a disaster. No matter what you do, the BSA has increased the vulnerability of all of the kids to sexual abuse while putting their souls in jeopardy.

But under the old policy, none of this was necessary. Scout X, although gay, could simply keep his sexual orientation to himself (which is what all of us are supposed to do anyway outside of marriage) and work his way to Eagle Scout without the shame of having a separate tent, separate shower, special gay talk from the Scoutmaster, etc. I think anyone could conclude that Scout X was better off under the old policy. That is why the OnMyHonor.net dissenters had as their slogan, “keep sex and politics out of Scouting.” The new policy is not less discriminatory than the old one; it just discriminates in different and worse ways.
 
I don’t see a contradiction. Of course it would happen. If you put a group of hormonally charged pubescent teenaged boys together, especially without adequate adult supervision, you can end up with crazy situations pretty easily.
Are you saying you think all pubescent teenage boys turn into sexual molesters without adequate adult supervision?
It’s not about “sex.” It’s about victimization.
Would a truly straight scout (who was not suffering from an anti-social pathological condition) sexually harass his fellow boy scouts?
 
Are you saying you think all pubescent teenage boys turn into sexual molesters without adequate adult supervision?
Mmmm…I don’t think I used the word “all.” Nope, didn’t use that word.
Would a truly straight scout (who was not suffering from an anti-social pathological condition) sexually harass his fellow boy scouts?
I dunno. 🤷 Are you saying they wouldn’t? I think you’re assuming that sexual harassment is about attraction, and I don’t make that same assumption. I think that bullies look for any angle they can find and use whatever leverage they have. This is beside the point, though.

One of the conclusions drawn by people who disagree with the BSA’s policy is that gay Scouts = molesters. This is a farfetched conclusion.
 

One of the conclusions drawn by people who disagree with the BSA’s policy is that gay Scouts = molesters. This is a farfetched conclusion.
when people need to stoke the latest Moral Panic, this is how its done.
 
The big unworkable problem with allowing openly gay boys into Catholic units of the Boy Scouts of America is this:
I didn’t know there were Catholic units. I thought they were all BSA units. My son’s Pack is chartered by a Methodist church. Does that mean it’s a Methodist unit?
 
I didn’t know there were Catholic units. I thought they were all BSA units. My son’s Pack is chartered by a Methodist church. Does that mean it’s a Methodist unit?
Actually, you’re right. They’re BSA units chartered by a church, which means they have to listen to BSA over their religious objections to BSA policies. It’s like the HHS mandate all over again. Kathleen Sebelius says you must pay for abortifacient drugs; BSA says you may not catechize against homosexuality. And forget about your religious liberty.

Therefore, fold the tents and leave. Go with Columbian Squires, Fraternus, Federation of North American Explorers, etc. instead. Give me liberty or give me death, as they used to say.
 
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