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Cat_Herder
Guest
Like an openly gay 17-year old senior patrol leader. Or are you unaware that Scouting is all about making the boys leaders?
Bishop responds to Boy Scouts' decision on admission of homosexual members [CWN]
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gilliam
Guest
Yes, like a boy who is actively engaged in homosexual behavior outside of Scouting. Again from the BSA:
Any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.
By reinforcing that Scouting is a youth program, and any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting, and that no member may use Scouting to promote or advance any social or political position or agenda, this resolution rightly recognizes there is a difference between kids and adults while remaining true to the long-standing virtues of Scouting.
This proposal is in line with the beliefs of most of Scouting’s major religious chartered organizations.
Some have asserted that the proposed change for youth runs counter to values of and raises concerns among Scouting’s religious chartered organizations. We are unaware of any major religious chartered organization that believes a youth member simply stating he or she is attracted to the same sex, but not engaging in sexual activity, should make him or her unwelcome in their congregation.
This proposal reinforces Scouting’s belief that sexual conduct by any Scout, heterosexual or homosexual, is contrary to the virtues of Scouting and is reflective of the beliefs of most of our major religious chartered organizations.
While, if this resolution is passed, no youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of stating their sexual orientation alone, Scouting expects appropriate behavior from all members, which includes sexual conduct, regardless of sexual orientation.
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While, if this resolution is passed, no youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of stating their sexual orientation alone, Scouting expects appropriate behavior from all members, which includes sexual conduct, regardless of sexual orientation.
scouting.org/sitecore/content/MembershipStandards/Resolution/FAQ.aspx
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Cat_Herder
Guest
The BSA would only discipline a boy who is actually having homosexual sex. What about a boy who just asserts he is homosexual? The BSA policy protects him from any discipline. But the Vatican says:
But the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered. When such a claim is made and when homosexual activity is consequently condoned, or when civil legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one has any conceivable right, neither the Church nor society at large should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase” (no. 10).
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There are areas in which it is not unjust discrimination to take sexual orientation into account, for example, in the placement of children for adoption or foster care, in employment of teachers or athletic coaches, and in military recruitment.
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Homosexual persons who assert their homosexuality tend to be precisely those who judge homosexual behavior or lifestyle to be “either completely harmless, if not an entirely good thing” (cf. no. 3), and hence worthy of public approval. It is from this quarter that one is more likely to find those who seek to “manipulate the Church by gaining the often well-intentioned support of her pastors with a view to changing civil statutes and laws” (cf. no. 5), those who use the tactic of protesting that “any and all criticism of or reservations about homosexual people… are simply diverse forms of unjust discrimination” (cf. no. 9).
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**it is inappropriate for Church authorities to endorse or remain neutral toward adverse legislation **even if it grants exceptions to Church organizations and institutions. The Church has the responsibility to promote family life and the public morality of the entire civil society on the basis of fundamental moral values, not simply to protect herself from the application of harmful laws (cf. no. 17).
Please, please wake up…
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gilliam
Guest
The following is the official statement of the President of ABS regarding the change in membership policy.
Having watched the news coverage and read numerous emails from concerned Baptists and Scouters, I contacted the Membership Impact Department at the National Office of the Boy Scouts of America, proposing an interpretation of the changes in the membership guidelines. Below is the text of what I offered as my interpretation.
First, it is my understanding that the resolution clearly states that sexual activity among Scout-aged youth is contrary to Scouting virtues, and I take that to mean that so long as it is uniformly and equitably applied, a unit could have in its statement a list of behavioral expectations regarding sexual abstinence as a condition of membership.
Secondly, it is my understanding that the resolution only says that youth may not be denied membership solely on the basis of the youth’s self-perceived sexual orientation. It does not say that a youth may not be denied membership if his behavior becomes a distraction to the program or the performance of the unit, or if his behavior casts a poor reflection on the reputation of the chartered organization.
Thirdly, the resolution, as I understand it, does not require that a church-chartered unit affirm the moral acceptability of same-sex attraction.
Fourth, the resolution does not preclude the right of the church to ask adult leaders to exemplify by word and example the positive nature of traditional, heterosexual marriage as their recognized standard what it means to be morally straight with the goal of influencing youth in the unit to appreciate and appropriate that as part of their personal values system.
The response I received from the Boy Scouts of America was that this interpretation was correct in every point so long as a charter organization did not try to use it to exclude a boy solely on the basis of his perceived sexual orientation. The BSA is working on a list of behavior expectations of its own, but I was also told that chartered organizations could craft their own codes of conduct and that they could be stricter than the one BSA creates, so long as it does not violate the new membership policy. In short, Baptist churches that charter Scout units have the power to enforce a code of conduct on the boys that precludes their ability to engage in any kind of sexual activity and to bring disciplinary measures to bear on youth who violate the code of conduct, even to the point of removing them if their behavior becomes detrimental to the unit or the reputation of the charter organization.
Given this interpretation of the situation, I believe that it is possible, even desirable, for Baptist churches to continue to utilize Scouting as an outreach ministry of the church. How it is done, however, must change. No longer can a church simply give meeting space to the Scouts. Churches must take a proactive approach to Scouting and involve members of the local congregation alongside Scout parents as leaders, set expectations for leaders consistent with the values of the church, and create an atmosphere of Scouting that is true to the vision of Lord Baden-Powell where everything done in Scouting is done with a focus on duty to God. In this way churches can turn what looks like a negative into a positive, having an influence in shaping the values of another generation, and even reach youth that might not otherwise be reached with the gospel.
A. J. Smith
President, Association of Baptists for Scouting
Having watched the news coverage and read numerous emails from concerned Baptists and Scouters, I contacted the Membership Impact Department at the National Office of the Boy Scouts of America, proposing an interpretation of the changes in the membership guidelines. Below is the text of what I offered as my interpretation.
First, it is my understanding that the resolution clearly states that sexual activity among Scout-aged youth is contrary to Scouting virtues, and I take that to mean that so long as it is uniformly and equitably applied, a unit could have in its statement a list of behavioral expectations regarding sexual abstinence as a condition of membership.
Secondly, it is my understanding that the resolution only says that youth may not be denied membership solely on the basis of the youth’s self-perceived sexual orientation. It does not say that a youth may not be denied membership if his behavior becomes a distraction to the program or the performance of the unit, or if his behavior casts a poor reflection on the reputation of the chartered organization.
Thirdly, the resolution, as I understand it, does not require that a church-chartered unit affirm the moral acceptability of same-sex attraction.
Fourth, the resolution does not preclude the right of the church to ask adult leaders to exemplify by word and example the positive nature of traditional, heterosexual marriage as their recognized standard what it means to be morally straight with the goal of influencing youth in the unit to appreciate and appropriate that as part of their personal values system.
The response I received from the Boy Scouts of America was that this interpretation was correct in every point so long as a charter organization did not try to use it to exclude a boy solely on the basis of his perceived sexual orientation. The BSA is working on a list of behavior expectations of its own, but I was also told that chartered organizations could craft their own codes of conduct and that they could be stricter than the one BSA creates, so long as it does not violate the new membership policy. In short, Baptist churches that charter Scout units have the power to enforce a code of conduct on the boys that precludes their ability to engage in any kind of sexual activity and to bring disciplinary measures to bear on youth who violate the code of conduct, even to the point of removing them if their behavior becomes detrimental to the unit or the reputation of the charter organization.
Given this interpretation of the situation, I believe that it is possible, even desirable, for Baptist churches to continue to utilize Scouting as an outreach ministry of the church. How it is done, however, must change. No longer can a church simply give meeting space to the Scouts. Churches must take a proactive approach to Scouting and involve members of the local congregation alongside Scout parents as leaders, set expectations for leaders consistent with the values of the church, and create an atmosphere of Scouting that is true to the vision of Lord Baden-Powell where everything done in Scouting is done with a focus on duty to God. In this way churches can turn what looks like a negative into a positive, having an influence in shaping the values of another generation, and even reach youth that might not otherwise be reached with the gospel.
A. J. Smith
President, Association of Baptists for Scouting
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gilliam
Guest
You do know that most boys today are heterosexual but they see homosexual behavior and lifestyle as completely harmless… you do know that, right? This is 2013, not 20 years ago.
If a boy judges homosexual behavior or lifestyle to be completely harmless then you have an opportunity to witness to him, do you not? Just like a boy who thinks it is completely harmless to cheat on an exam, or steal.
We have the boys when they are forming their moral compass. That is why the program was created in the first place.
Throwing them out into the gutter, which I think you are proposing to do, will not help them. Keeping them in a good program with good leadership will.
No one says you must make them SPL or even advance them if they are promoting a lifestyle that goes against Scouting Standards. In fact if they are advocating such behavior that goes against BSA policy and you can go so far as to remove them from the program.
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Trader
Guest
Bishop Kevin C Rhodes of Fort Wayne-South Bend has addressed this issue in his weekly column in our diocesan newspaper:
todayscatholicnews.org/category/rhoades-columnists/
Bishop Rhoades was also assigned the job of investigating the Girl Scouts of America by the USCCB last year.
wane.com/dpp/news/indiana/bishop-rhoades-leads-girl-scout-inquiry
todayscatholicnews.org/category/rhoades-columnists/
Bishop Rhoades was also assigned the job of investigating the Girl Scouts of America by the USCCB last year.
wane.com/dpp/news/indiana/bishop-rhoades-leads-girl-scout-inquiry
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Again, from the Vatican:
Since “*n the discussion which followed the publication of the (aforementioned) declaration…, an overly benign interpretation was given to the homosexual condition itself, some going so far as to call it neutral or even good”, the letter goes on to clarify: “Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered towards an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.
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8. “What is at all costs to be avoided is the unfounded and demeaning assumption that the sexual behavior of homosexual persons is always and totally compulsive and therefore inculpable. What is essential is that the fundamental liberty which characterizes the human person and gives him his dignity be recognized as belonging to the homosexual person as well” (no. 11).
So… how is a Catholic Scoutmaster supposed to say “homosexuality is objectively disordered?” He can’t, as explained in this post. Therefore he is forced to affirm the homosexual tendency as normal. That is a huge problem which cannot be remedied except by withdrawing from the BSA on account of the policy.*
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gilliam
Guest
Worth quoting here for those interested:
I have received a number of inquiries about the recently approved resolution of the Boy Scouts of America which states the following: “No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.” Scouts, Scout leaders and parents, and others have asked me my position on this change and whether or not our parishes will be allowed to continue sponsoring Boy Scout troops.
When it comes to our young people, we must be ever vigilant in their Christian moral formation and upbringing. This is a responsibility primarily of parents. It is also a responsibility of the Church, our teachers, and our youth leaders. We are responsible for their training in virtue, including the virtue of chastity.
If a young person is experiencing same-sex attraction, we must reach out to him/her with love and support, and help him/her not to feel isolated or alienated. Such young people need special encouragement and guidance so they are not drawn into an immoral lifestyle. They need family support, good friendships and a strong spiritual life in order to live a healthy, chaste, and holy life. Most importantly, they, like all of us, need the support of the Church’s sacraments, which heal, strengthen, and enable us to live the demands of the Gospel.
The Church teaches that men and women who have homosexual inclinations “must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided” (CCC 2358). The Church also teaches that “homosexual persons are called to chastity” (CCC 2359).
The Boy Scouts of America has publicly stated that any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting.
The change in the Boy Scouts’ membership standard, in itself, does not seem to me to be in conflict with Catholic teaching. However, what is critical is the way in which it is understood and implemented. While the Church teaches that homosexual acts are sinful, it distinguishes between engaging in homosexual acts and struggling with homosexual inclinations. The experience of same-sex attraction, having a homosexual tendency, while disordered, is not in itself sinful. Regardless, every human person is called to live chastely; this is true regardless of sexual inclinations or attractions.
The way many in the media, both secular media and some Catholic media, have reported the change in the Boy Scouts policy has been confusing. For example, many have reported that the Boy Scouts are now accepting “openly gay scouts.” Nowhere have I seen that language used by the Boy Scouts of America. The language, as quoted above, mentions non-denial of membership based on sexual orientation. The use of the term “openly gay scouts” gives the impression of a scout who embraces the experience of same-sex attraction as if it defined his identity and who promotes a gay lifestyle. I don’t think that is what the resolution means.
As the new policy currently stands, I see no reason to prohibit our parishes from sponsoring Boy Scout troops. At the same time, it is critical that we be vigilant on how this new policy is interpreted and implemented.
It is important also that persons with a homosexual inclination know that the Church is here to help and support them in living as chaste disciples of Jesus, and not feel alienated from the Church. That is why our diocese has Courage chapters in both Fort Wayne and South Bend. There are active Catholics in our diocese who experience same-sex attraction and live in accord with Church teaching. They are bearing witness to Christ and living their faith in the midst of a culture that is telling them to forsake the teachings of the Church and to act on their homosexual temptations. But they strive to live in chastity and have embraced the call to holiness. With the help of God’s grace, they are living good and holy lives.
I hope that the new Boy Scouts policy does not lead to encouraging young people to define themselves primarily in terms of their sexual inclination. Our young people should be taught to define themselves primarily in terms of their identity as beloved children of God, created in His image and likeness. Our fundamental orientation is toward God, and is not reducible to sexual inclinations, however powerful they may seem. They should also see themselves as beloved members of the Body of Christ, the Church.
The National Catholic Committee on Scouting is cooperating with the Bishops of the United States and relates to the USCCB through a Bishop Liaison, Bishop Robert Guglielmone. They will be studying the details of the application of this new resolution of the Boy Scouts of America over the coming months. The membership resolution is scheduled to be implemented on January 1, 2014. The NCCS and Bishop Guglielmone will keep the Bishops informed on this matter.
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gilliam
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Cat_Herder
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What about JUST discrimination? This ignores the Vatican’s clarification of these passages allowing, and in some cases requiring, openly gay teachers and leaders (such as older boys who are patrol leaders) to be kept out of such positions.
That’s because they took it down from their website just before the vote. But they forgot to tell the councils to throw out their copy. So here it is from the BSA:
What has changed:
Youth are still developing, learning about themselves and who they are, developing their sense of right and wrong, and understanding their duty to God to live a moral life. Accordingly, a youth member simply stating he or she is attracted to the same sex, but not engaging in sexual activity, does not make them ineligible for membership.
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2. If a chartered organization does not agree with allowing gay members, can it deny them membership or defer them to another unit?
No. Effective Jan. 1, 2014, no youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone. However, any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting. As they always have, chartered organizations can require members to demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law.
NCCS is part of the BSA and cannot be trusted to give a neutral opinion on whether or not the BSA is the best option for our children. You might as well ask a McDonald’s manager what to eat.
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pnewton
Guest
Sure he can. No problem at all. We need not confirm anything that is false. Don’t believe it? Just wait and see. I will assure you it will happen.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Did you read the BSA letter?
- If a chartered organization does not agree with allowing gay members, can it deny them membership or defer them to another unit?
No. Effective Jan. 1, 2014, no youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone. However, any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting. As they always have, chartered organizations can require members to demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law.
You cannot keep a boy from becoming, say, a patrol leader because he is gay; how then can you “require [him] to demonstrate behavior” such as not promoting homosexual attraction as normal? Now read the Vatican statement:
But the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered. …There are areas in which it is not unjust discrimination to take sexual orientation into account, for example, in the placement of children for adoption or foster care, in employment of teachers or athletic coaches, and in military recruitment. … Including “homosexual orientation” among the considerations on the basis of which it is illegal to discriminate can easily lead to regarding homosexuality as a positive source of human rights … Homosexual persons who assert their homosexuality tend to be precisely those who judge homosexual behavior or lifestyle to be “either completely harmless, if not an entirely good thing” (cf. no. 3), and hence worthy of public approval.
So… What does the Vatican say to do with your openly gay patrol leader? Will the BSA let you do that?
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Brendan
Guest
- Registered Boy Scout of Catholic Faith.
No problem, several are starting up, and we’ve got other options.
Our parish is an ethnic personal parish staffed out of Eastern Europe. The parish is part of the diocese, but the staffing is done by an archdiocese in eastern Europe.
Scouting there is run by the Church, at least the largest group is. The diocese and the Council are one and the same. The archbishop there has permitted us to register as Scouts out of his diocese.
We’ll do that until we see what surfaces up in the US.
Now that program is not WOSM Scouts (but it is charted out of the Vatican) , but there are fully Catholic Scouting orgs internationally that ARE WOSM registered. It would put the BSA in an interesting position to argue that other WOSM Scouts are not, in fact, true Scouts, or that their Scouting programs violate BSA copyrights.
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Cat_Herder
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I don’t think the Bishop has read either:
In short, the policy absolutely DOES conflict with Catholic teaching. You can’t conclude this from reading the Catechism alone; you’d have to look at other Magisterial documents like the above, that clarify what the Catechism says, especially what is and is not “just discrimination.” I hope and pray that our Bishops will do so and come to the right conclusion for the sake of our youth.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
But the Catholic Church has cleaned out the filth, and continues to proactively do so. BSA has not, and now they’re adopting a policy that moves children back towards danger–not only of physical/sexual abuse, but also emotional abuse and being misled spiritually.
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pnewton
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You can say “patrol leader”. I will not. The letter does not. “Read it carefully” (and don’t add or read into it). The policy applies to membership.
Like I said, if you do not want to say anything, that is up to you. Rest assured I can and will speak against the sin of homosexuality if the question arises in a Catholic scouting context, as the Baptist group was told they could do. I am sure that I am not the only Catholic to be willing to do so. Nothing in the policy or Catholic theology prohibits this.
I am not backing down or surrendering the BSA to the homosexual activists.
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buffalo
Guest
**Now I am really confused. Catholic bishops are now on board with sexual orientation?
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Boy Scouts of America - Bishop Malone statement
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Boy Scouts of America - Bishop Malone statement
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Brendan
Guest
Yes, I am familiar with FNE. Great org.
I’ve know about for over a year now and have friends in it.
Which is why I wouldn’t think of getting them involved in all this mess
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Dawnia
Guest
This specifically contradicts the rules of Venturing, which allows married youth to not only join, but tent together.
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