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gilliam
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He said for you to do what you saw best. That Brendan is a “punt”
Bishop responds to Boy Scouts' decision on admission of homosexual members [CWN]
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gilliam
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I am on the side of a number of bishops who have spoken so far, see:
From Bishop Guglielmone (Diocese of Charleston, SC and Bishop Liaison to NCCS):
themiscellany.org/index.php/news/4505-bishop-responds-to-decision-to-allow-gay-youth-in-boy-scouts
From Bishop Malloy (Diocese of Rockford, IL):
http://www.rockforddiocese.org/BSA
From Archbishop Aquila (Archdiocese of Denver):
http://www.archden.org/index.cfm/ID/10186
From Cardinal Wuerl (Archdiocese of Washington, DC):
http://www.cathstan.org/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=2&ArticleID=5699
Bishop Kevin C Rhoades, Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend:todayscatholicnews.org/category/rhoades-columnists/
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Cat_Herder
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From the letter:
2. If a chartered organization does not agree with allowing gay members, can it deny them membership or defer them to another unit?
No. Effective Jan. 1, 2014, no youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone. However, any sexual conduct, whether homosexual or heterosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting. As they always have, chartered organizations can require members to demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law.
The link to the voting member packet (VMP) is a few posts up. It says the BSA has the right not to indemnify you for restricting the activities of a gay Scout.
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Cat_Herder
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Almost all the Bishops have reserved final judgment, a wise move.
You, on the other hand, have passed judgment on the Vatican for supposedly being out of date.
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gilliam
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No one can pass final judgment until we see how things fall out. But the Bishops are also saying there is no reason to pull out right now since the policy seems to be in line with Catholic teaching.
Not really. What I was trying to say was to stop twisting a document that was written a few years ago that was not intended to address what your trying to make it address in a situation in the BSA that is occurring now in 2013.
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gilliam
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The key word is ALONE. “No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.” Behavior can be grounds for removal or denial of membership.
As I pointed out, in the letter to COs it states that “Scouting’s chartered organizations have the right to uphold their own moral standards within the units they sponsor.”
Behavior is not orientation and orientation is not behavior (no matter how some people try to twist Vatican documents into saying so)
I really don’t understand what your seeing there. Here is all that is on page 33:
The Legal Study Group was charged with gathering opinions on
the possible litigation and other legal implications of a change
in the membership standards from the legal community and
providing an analysis on the related legal issues.
Legal advice and analysis on the possible legal implications and
potential effects of a change in the BSA’s membership policy
were considered.
It was clarified that there will be no change in the BSA’s defense
and indemnification of claims arising out of any claim related
to a denial of membership or participation in Scouting activities
because of a failure to meet the BSA’s membership standards.
What that means is that as long as you are abiding by BSA policies the BSA legal team will back you up. So, for example, an avowed homosexual adult wants to join your unit as an Asst Scoutmaster and you say no, the BSA Legal team will back you up since you are in line with BSA policies.
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Brendan
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So are you on the side of bishops who tell their troops to do what they feel is best?
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gilliam
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LOL! Yea I guess, but when I go to someone for advice and they say, “do what you feel is best.” I take it as a punt.
Brendan, if you want to start a sewing circle that is fine with me too. The BSA is a club, you either join it or not. But there is no reason a Catholic should not join the BSA based on Church doctrine that I can fine. However, if you want to not join the BSA and want to create your own club, that is fine with me too. You can take that as a punt if you like
The problem I have is that people want to start clubs specifically to prevent a boy who has SSA from joining just because he has SSA and there are no behavior issues involved at all. I’m sorry, I see that as prejudice, unchristian, and against Church teaching. It eliminates an opportunity to minister to a boy at a time he may need it the most. It reminds me of segregation and many of the arguments I have seen to defend this action remind me of segregation as well.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
A mentoring organization with a policy that it’s okay to tell your young peers that you have perverted desires (which is what “I’m gay” says) tells them that having perverted desires is, itself, “okay”. I fail to see how that is in line with Catholic teaching.
I truly don’t see why any parent would expose his children to that.
And for what benefit is this being done? So a homosexual can announce himself homosexual without repercussion.
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fix
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Keep asking the hard questions. No solid answers because all we have is a vague policy on paper than can be argued either way. When pointed direct questions are asked the answers are never clear. Basically, in theory it is reconcilable in some vague way. In practice? Well we do not know. Hence the very vague “official” responses to a prudential issue.
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fix
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See my response in the post above.I would stop right there. This is a policy. All we have is what is explicitly there. If we had to read the current cultural trends in order to interpret policies, we’d be hopelessly lost.
I am not advising looking the other way or playing a game of moral twister. I am advising looking at the facts and taking things one step at a time. In the coming months, BSA will undoubtedly flesh out what this very simple, concise policy statement means in terms of implementation. I think it is better to wait and see what they say in that regard before jumping ship. The NCCS and the bishops agree with that strategy, so I feel I’m in good company.
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Tigg
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**Woo hoo! **What I’ve been saying all along.
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gilliam
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No, it isn’t telling them having perverted desires is OK. The only change is that we are not kicking them out of the program if they tell us they have them. That’s all. Period. Just like we don’t kick them out of CYO or the Church if they tell us. It is an opportunity to minister to them and to comfort them. So yea, it is in line with Catholic teaching. Read what the bishops have been saying about this.
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fix
Guest
And when they were “kicked” out the bishops had no problem with that policy.
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Brendan
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I don’t think you would get a different response from any bishop in the US, if the pastor went to them and stated that the Troop would rather register with a different org.
That isn’t our reason, if you read the posts. It’s more like that there are org that better suit our needs arising from this mess.
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Tigg
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Cat Herder: I salute you! :tiphat:
Thanks for being all over this board on this issue!
(jumping back in)
Agreed, and not only that, as I’ve always said, 'the punishment should fit the crime."
This seems like a really stiff punishment for a boy, to kick him out for life and deprive him of a positive experience and deprive others of his contributions. For a 12-year-old, and for something that’s not his fault. I wonder if we’d do the same thing to a boy that gets caught sneaking beer into the tent.
And I agree, a lot of the arguments remind me of the 1950s segregation arguments: “We don’t really hate black Americans; we just don’t want to associate with them!”
Edit: Was disagreeing with the original BSA policy, not totally disagreeing with forming alternative or Catholic groups.
Respecting your view on that, just like a parent wanting to send their child to Catholic schools instead of the city schools.
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Tigg
Guest
Not quite.
Without any attempt to address the very valid concern that it creates a vulnerability that could place boys in the near occasion of grave sin??
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