Bishop Robert Carlson - Sioux Falls

[frommi]

msproule:

I’ll bite…to what issues do you refer?

Let.s be philosophical.

In the document about women last year, the church seemed to say that women had a complementary role to men, each was equallly important.

Now…from a philosohpical perspective, could one not make the arugment that if both genders are important that both might have a place in the priesthood.

 

[InnocentIII]

frommi:

Look…all i know is that we know more now than we did when the church started…time moves on…our understandings of things change…and there isn’t anything wrong with that.

hmmm … and I guess we know more now than God did then too. He’s such an old fashioned kind of guy. Our knowledge of the world may increase but as far as the Will of God is concerned as expressed through the Magisterium of the Church our knowledge is as it ever was. When you are reduced to setting up strawmen to attack then you really have run out of arguments.

 

[InnocentIII]

frommi:

Let.s be philosophical.

In the document about women last year, the church seemed to say that women had a complementary role to men, each was equallly important.

Now…from a philosohpical perspective, could one not make the arugment that if both genders are important that both might have a place in the priesthood.

OK lets be philosophical.

Equally important but complementary does not imply identicality either logically or philosophically. That is a syllogism. All horses eat grass, a cow eats grass, therefore a cow is a horse.

Complementarity means different but equal. After all both parents are equally important in conception but only the woman can bear the child. Are you suggesting that “philosophically” both might have a place in being pregnant?

 

[fix]

frommi:

At one point it was considered immoral to charge interest on loans…that’s not a problem any more.

The meaning of money changed. Usury is still a sin.

 

[fix]

frommi:

L

Now…from a philosohpical perspective, could one not make the arugment that if both genders are important that both might have a place in the priesthood.

Thank you for confirming my earlier suspicion that these dialogue issues are always about gender, genital sexuality and power.

Folks do not want to grow in understanding and obedience, they want rebellion disguised as dialogue.

 

[InnocentIII]

fix:

Thank you for confirming my earlier suspicion that these dialogue issues are always about gender, genital sexuality and power.

Folks do not want to grow in understanding and obedience, they want rebellion disguised as dialogue.

Until they achieve their ends and then dialogue is divisive

 

[fix]

InnocentIII:

Until they achieve their ends and then dialogue is divisive

Indeed.

 

[frommi]

fix:

Thank you for confirming my earlier suspicion that these dialogue issues are always about gender, genital sexuality and power.

Folks do not want to grow in understanding and obedience, they want rebellion disguised as dialogue.

Open rebellion would seem to require violating a discipline…like going to a church where a woman consecrates the bread and wine and claims its in the catholic tradition.

I don’t see a whole lot of harm in continuing to ask questions.

And back on your other point…there are plenty of things to dialogue about…translations of scripture…scripture commentary…etc.

Dialogue is not divisive, nor should it be. In fact, I think what hurts a lot of dialogue is the lack of a responsible and cogent conservative voice. The only conservative voices that seem to get a lot of media play are the right wingers on EWTN and in the Catholic League.

If both sides of some of these theological arguments were more responsible about the way they presented their points of view, then things would not be as divisive.

 

[fix]

frommi:

Open rebellion would seem to require violating a discipline…like going to a church where a woman consecrates the bread and wine and claims its in the catholic tradition.

IMO, some of the worst rebellion is not open. It is when we try to combine truth with error while never publicly denying the truth. It goes on every day.

I don’t see a whole lot of harm in continuing to ask questions.

What is the intent of the questions? Is it to grow in obedience? Was it Augustine who said to accept first and seek understanding later? Most of the time I find when I accept Church teaching I tend to grow in a deeper understanding.

And back on your other point…there are plenty of things to dialogue about…translations of scripture…scripture commentary…etc.

Again, what is the idea behind the dialogue?

Dialogue is not divisive, nor should it be. In fact, I think what hurts a lot of dialogue is the lack of a responsible and cogent conservative voice. The only conservative voices that seem to get a lot of media play are the right wingers on EWTN and in the Catholic League.

If both sides of some of these theological arguments were more responsible about the way they presented their points of view, then things would not be as divisive.

Could you elaborate on this? I do not follow?

 

[BayCityRickL]

MBS1:

. . . Of course, the bread is made with wheat, honey, baking powder, etc, - I think you all know the receipe by now. . . . MBS1

I hope those of you who are interested in the altar bread recipe issue have been following the articles in The Catholic Weekly by Sister Mary Garascia. on 6/25/05 in defense of her position of altering the recipes for the breads she committed a heresy.

She argued rather strongly that the Last Supper was not a Passover Meal, but perhaps was a special meal only. This contradicts Paragraph 1340 of the Catechism, which is the doctrine of the Church. 1340 says that the Last Supper (not a term in the Bible incidentally) was the *definitive * Passover.

Contradicting the doctrine of the Church is a heresy, last I looked it up. You cannot pick and choose the doctrines and remain a faithful Catholic.

I don’t know how the Catholic Weekly or Sister Garascia digs themselves out of that hole, stay tuned.

 

[singerlady]

BayCityRickL:

I hope those of you who are interested in the altar bread recipe issue have been following the articles in The Catholic Weekly by Sister Mary Garascia. on 6/25/05 in defense of her position of altering the recipes for the breads she committed a heresy.

I was at a meeting at the diocese a few weeks ago and one of the women was relating a conversation between a “bread baker” and Bishop Carlson. He was reviewing the proper recipe and pointing out that honey is a grave abuse, and the “bread baker” replied, “What? Jesus can’t get in there if there’s honey in the bread?” I couldn’t believe that someone would be so disrespectful of the Bishop. I couldn’t believe that someone else thought the “bread baker’s” response was cool!!

Incidentally, does anyone know WHY honey is a grave abuse? I’m just wondering because it would be easier to argue the point with the cookie bakers if we knew why it’s not allowed. The reason I ask is that the language is rather vague concerning the flour and some have found wiggle room there, but the honey issue is quite clear in the documents.

 

[saggal]

When Bishop Carlson had his Main Street Meeting at my parish, he was asked about increasing vocations.

He related that at one of his previous meetings, a woman stood after he talked about his ideas and efforts and said something along the lines of “I hope you don’t get any more priests, so that more lay people can get involved in running the church.”

His response was that we are a Eucharistic Church, so without priests, we cease to be a Church.

I was shocked someone could be that disrespectful and that ignorant at the same time.

 

[bknebel]

People of Saginaw-

My heart aches for you and your bishop!

Here in South Dakota, we average 2 ordinations a year, nearly guaranteed. Next year, we will have three. We are a Eucharistic Church and without priests, we cease to be the church. Next Sunday, a parish near my home will have communion services because the priest is gone and was unable to find a sub for the weekend. This is a bad thing, but y’know what, At Least the Eucharist will be present… and not with Honey Either!

I pray for Saginaw as often as I can. You all need a revival of hearts and spirits!

The way I see the Church is that how we view the Eucharist (ie- tabernacle placement, eucharistic bread altars, etc) is how we view Jesus. If we don’t put much emphasis on it or respect its proper ways, we don’t love or respect Jesus!

I’m prayin for y’all!

 

[MrS]

singerlady:

Incidentally, does anyone know WHY honey is a grave abuse? .

If you first recognize that the “Last Supper” was :

1. a celebration of the Passover… at Passover time. There are many direct references in Scripture that make this clear.
2. The “rules and regulations” for the observance were fixed and unchangable… including the use of unleavened bread (see Exodus).
3. Jesus was the perfect Jew. And His instructions to the Apostles were to prepare (not re-invent) for the Passover.
4. unleavened bread is what it is… flour and water…no mention of honey, and no mention of future nuns or laity being given the option of design.

 

[singerlady]

MrS:

If you first recognize that the “Last Supper” was :

1. a celebration of the Passover… at Passover time. There are many direct references in Scripture that make this clear.
2. The “rules and regulations” for the observance were fixed and unchangable… including the use of unleavened bread (see Exodus).
3. Jesus was the perfect Jew. And His instructions to the Apostles were to prepare (not re-invent) for the Passover.
4. unleavened bread is what it is… flour and water…no mention of honey, and no mention of future nuns or laity being given the option of design.

Okay, now it makes sense. Now I see why the disconnect is being made between the Last Supper and Eucharist i.e. “Jesus simply used the food of the day - if he had lived in Japan, it would have been tea and rice cakes.” This was actually used in a homily on Holy Thursday at our parish a few years ago.

 

[MrS]

Perhaps I should have included:

1. The use of bread and wine is significant. Wheat and grapes were the two major and necessary crops of the time… one from the beginning of the growing season, the other from the end. Kinda the alpha/omega of food groups,. Never the less, Jesus was following the tradition of the Passover.
2. none of this is now just symbolic… Just as at the Passover… we must Eat the Lamb. And at consecration, that is just what we receive,.

 

[MBS1]

There is actually a good article at Catholic.com who puts on this forum. Just type “wheat” into the search area on the upper left and it will take you to an article from a 2002 issue of This Rock magazine which helps explain the importance of using wheat.

MBS1

 

[Orionthehunter]

As a sheep in the Diocese of Sioux Falls, Bishop Carlson was my Good Shepherd. It still makes my heart ache when I think that he has been moved to Saginaw. However, I know the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church and it is God’s will to have Bishop Carlson in Saginaw. While appreciating the yeoman’s work of our Apolostolic Administer Bishop Aquilla, I pray we soon recieve our own Shepherd and welcome your prayers in gratitude for receiving Bishop Carlson.

This thread sure seems to have gotten off the path of discussing issues surrounding Bishop Carlson’s new duties in Saginaw and what it means for your Diocese. I just want to say that you have a Bishop that is a man of prayer who sincerely yearns to discern the Will of God. Bishop Carlson will do his very best to lead his flock to a closer relationship with Jesus Christ. While open to new ideas (you should see the retreat and family youth camp that he spearheaded the development despite is own initial misgivings changed through his own prayerful discernment or how he moved an entire parish so he could create a primarily Hispanic parish in the heart of the City of Sioux Falls), he is not afraid to exert his teaching authority when he believes that ideas or practices are contrary to the Truth and Teaching of the Magisterium or otherwise obscure our focus on Jesus Christ. Tabernacles are in places of prominence again and Eucharistic Adoration is now the norm rather than the exception in most parishes- some are 24 hours seven days a week (of course not while Mass is being hear), many are at least 24 hours weekly, and most of the rest are at least 12 hours a week. You will find that his example and leadership will invigorate everyone he touches including the Priests and Religious. He will spur people to a closer personal relationship with Jesus Christ. He will provide leadership so that the enhanced faith flock can better touch the lives of the poor, disenfranchised, and unchurched. The Diocese and its parishes will be beacons on which people will be able to see Christ. While he never ever sacrificed those things that make us Catholic and distinct from our Jewish and Protestant brethren, you will find that his devotion to God will cause him to become a respected moral spokesman for people of all faiths as he became in South Dakota. Religious leaders of all denominations fell all over themselves praising Bishop Carlson from their pulpits and in the news media when word came of his assignment to Saginaw. Bishop Carlson is a humble but strong man of deep faith. At the same time, he is as human as you and me. He needs your prayer and support as he is unable to do anything good without the strength that comes from Jesus Christ through the witness and support of the people of God. Love him, pray for him and love him some more. The Trinity will smile on you if you do as they did on the Diocese of South Dakota.

 

[grotto]

Hello there! Guess we are up and running once more - thank you! Sacred Heart Church in Gladwin was the parish that our new dear Bishop Carlson said Mass at on Sunday.

The last time I went to that church, the priest at that time announced the movement of the tabernacle and statues, etc. That was about
eleven years ago. I knew at the time what was happening so I had to rule out going back there to find the Holy Mass. So, Sunday morning at 8 o’clock found me in attendance as Bishop Carlson said the Mass. What a sorrowful presentation that church offered. No crucifix - a bare cross up front and a bare cross carried in for Mass.
The tabernacle is not visible - a red sanctuary candle was burning up in the corner but guess the tabernacle was behind the plain drywalled walls - behind the altar. The altar is not the beautiful one they had originally - its the plain workbench type that is the spirit of Vatican II. Of course the statues had to be placed where most people don’t see them, but they did still have them.

The keyboard player played and played and played - all through out the Mass - especially the Consecration. He kept plunking away. While the Bishop was saying the prayers exclusively for the priest to pray, the choir sang along. I noticed his reaction to this but he was very resilient.

My thanks to Bishop Carlson for the beautiful and holy Mass. I was able to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion and have such reverence be so visible. We are truly blessed with this Bishop!

Maybe things can improve for Gladwin’s Sacred Heart if those in charge can realize that our Catholic Church has two thousand years of teaching and tradition - all the history and Vatican Councils - not just what is referred to in their church bulletin as the spirit of Vatican II.

 

[Orionthehunter]

“The altar is not the beautiful one they had originally - its the plain workbench type that is the spirit of Vatican II.”

Don’t blame Vatican II for this change (remember all of our last four Popes were dominant/significant leaders throughout Vatican II). Just because of many misinterpretations of Vatican II, it appears you are casting aspersions on this Council which I believe was guided by the Holy Spirit. And just because there were misinterpretations doesn’t mean the “perpetrators” were/are evil or otherwise to be scorned. It is our jobs as laity to support leaders like Bishop Carlson who will do what is necessary to correct the misinterpretations. God always makes good even out of sin and mistakes. From the guidance of the Holy Spirit and through leadership from Popes JPII and BXVI and Bishops like you now have in Saginaw, the Church will right itself like it always does and has.

Who doubts the Wisdom of the selection of JPII at a time when we needed a person of vigor and charisma to reach out to fallen Catholics and the unchurched? Who doubts the wisdom of selecting of Benedict XVI at a time that we need to address some liturgical misinterpretations? Why do you think that Pope’s selection of his replacement as the “Defender of the Faith” (I don’t recall the exact title) was an American but to insure that the new Pope’s direction is quickly and effectively adopted with minimal controversy?

As laity, we need to pray for our Pope, Bishop, and Priests as they discern these issues and then support them in their decisions whether they be too far-reaching, not far-reaching enough, or too incremental. As it said in this past weeks Gospel (dont’ pull the weeds as you might also pull up the wheat), we need to be less critical and judgmental and more supportive lest we pull up some wheat.