Bishop says tighter gun laws will help build culture of life

[pnewton]

Brazil, for instance, has 1/2 the US population but 3 times the murder rate and they ban guns.

Do not look at** two** nations, but look at** all** nations. Compare guns per capita (we’re #1!) and murder rates (we are lower than all third world countries, and almost all the rest of the world is lower than us. ). I know stats are tricky and elusive, but this one really looks bad on the pro-gun side.

 

[Fairwinds]

Or try this:

Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church:

**401. *The Church’s social doctrine indicates the criteria for exercising the right to resistance: “Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave and prolonged violation of fundamental rights, 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted, 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders, 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution”.[824] Recourse to arms is seen as an extreme remedy for putting an end to a “manifest, long-standing tyranny which would do great damage to fundamental personal rights and dangerous harm to the common good of the country”.[825] The gravity of the danger that recourse to violence entails today makes it preferable in any case that passive resistance *be practised, which is “a way more conformable to moral principles and having no less prospects for success”.[826]
Now how in the world could a population exercise the right to armed resistance (as a last resort) if they have been utterly disarmed?

Interesting. Under this analysis, the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising ('43) were not justified in exercising the right to resistance, as conditions 3 and 4 could not be met.

 

[Peebo]

Agreed. But none of the proposals that the Senate considered would have done anything to prevent another Sandy Hook - everyone that looked at this bill admitted that. Perhaps if the Justice Department made it a point to enforce the laws in place there might be some sort of abatement.

All the democrats wanted to do was pass a bill (even one as worthless as this) in the Senate so it would die in the House. Then the democrats would wave the bloody shirt at midterms claiming Republicans have a war on women and children. The problem is the bill never even made it to House and that ticked Obama off.

And here-in lies a big part of the problem…everything comes down to politics…I’m not an Obama supporter or a Democrat…but at least he tried to get something done…even what he wanted was watered down…but even that wasn’t good enough because of party politics…what ever happened to WE THE PEOPLE…there is no such thing in this country…it’s WE THE LOBBYISTS…they are the ones who tell politicians what and what not to vote for…the NRA has the Republican politicians quivering in their boots…they even threatened to run other candidates against them if they didn’t toe the NRA line…how pathetic that not one Republican had the guts to stand beside those grieving Sandy Hook parents…and there were Democrat politicians who were just as gutless also…maybe it’s time we got rid of all these lobbyists and their special interests and told all politicians that they will listen to us…WE THE PEOPLE…and abide by what what the majority say…maybe I’m dreaming also…God bles y’all

 

[Bill_Martin]

And here-in lies a big part of the problem…everything comes down to politics…I’m not an Obama supporter or a Democrat…but at least he tried to get something done…even what he wanted was watered down…but even that wasn’t good enough because of party politics…what ever happened to WE THE PEOPLE…there is no such thing in this country…it’s WE THE LOBBYISTS…they are the ones who tell politicians what and what not to vote for…the NRA has the Republican politicians quivering in their boots…they even threatened to run other candidates against them if they didn’t toe the NRA line…how pathetic that not one Republican had the guts to stand beside those grieving Sandy Hook parents…and there were Democrat politicians who were just as gutless also…maybe it’s time we got rid of all these lobbyists and their special interests and told all politicians that they will listen to us…WE THE PEOPLE…and abide by what what the majority say…maybe I’m dreaming also…God bles y’all

we the people once thought it was okay to own blacks. We the people once thought it was okay to send Japanese people to internment camps. We the people once thought it was okay to have segregated drinking fountains. We once thought banning alcohol was a good idea. We have a Constitution and a republican form of government because the passions of the people are often subject to demagogues and idiots. We the people have some very stupid ideas. The Constition is designed to protect against the infringing of rights by anyone, majority included. The 2nd Amendment is a fundamental right that protects the people against the encroachments of a tyrannical government. Neither should be cast aside (and yes, that is exactly what this bill and amendments are designed to do) because it’s currently trendy to do so.

 

[Brendan]

And here-in lies a big part of the problem…everything comes down to politics…I’m not an Obama supporter or a Democrat…but at least he tried to get something done…even what he wanted was watered down…

Watered down??

If I took some of my scouts to a public rifle range and lent them my 22 single shot bolt action rifle, it would have made felons out of all of us. Even if the rifle was used under my supervision and the supervision of State DNR officials at a public range.

If you consider that to be ‘watered down’, what did you want from my scouts, the death penalty???

And if I ever want to seel that bolt action 22, I could not have. It came to me via my father, who got it when a neighbor passed away, he had it for quite a long time, since it was built in the 60’s , but none of us know if he was the original owner.

But for me to sell it, even to someone legally free to purchase firearms, and with an impeccable background check, I could not, as the bill would require me to prove ownership. And how exactly could I do that??

No, this bill stunk to high heaven and deserved to be tossed in the waste basket

 

[SuperLuigi]

=pnewton;10640437]Then let me fill you in on a little bit about human behavior. Not all criminals are the same. Most are situational criminals that usually obey the law, but in a specific situation commit a crime. They make probation and never are heard from again. Most criminals are not gun-wielding street hoodlums. If you wish to accuse the Church of refusing to look at human behavior, I would recommend that you not do so by labeling people and treating them according to their label.

Criminals are people who are guilty of breaking the law as proven by due process. It’s not a label, so drop the over-sensitive nonsense.

My point was that if a criminal wants a gun, gun control legislation and a UN Arms Trade Treaty won’t stop them.

Furthermore, I didn’t accuse the Church of anything; I was talking about the USCCB, and people like me wouldn’t have to point out their mistakes if they’d bother to take the time to examine the facts.

Maybe then they wouldn’t be caught flat-footed supporting a health-care bill largely on the basis that “it feels good” and then two years later realizing the same bill mandates violations of Catholic teaching.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

That is absolutely incorrect.



Why am I not surprised.

What was incorrect?

Surprised that our bishops have committees?

 

[SuperLuigi]

Do not look at** two** nations, but look at** all** nations. Compare guns per capita (we’re #1!) and murder rates (we are lower than all third world countries, and almost all the rest of the world is lower than us. ). I know stats are tricky and elusive, but this one really looks bad on the pro-gun side.

All the areas in this country with gun control have the worst violence. Chicago and DC, for example.

In fact, every single mass shooting with the exception of Tuscon were gun-free or gun control zones.

The areas without gun control have the least violence.

So why aren’t we lower?

Because some parts of the USA have gun control, mainly the most populated areas, while others do not.

And let’s look another country: Switzerland. According to wikipedia, their murder rate is one of the lowest in the world, yet they REQUIRE most men to own guns.

 

[SuperLuigi]

What was incorrect?

Surprised that our bishops have committees?

That gun control will help.

Sorry, should have been more specific.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

:banghead:

Criminals won’t obey the laws! That’s why they are called criminals!

If they can’t get a gun, they’ll just find something else to use.

So we give up on abortions, because they will find a place, and a way anyway? That’s essentially what one is saying when they say, criminals will find a way. The law for background checks would place sellers in a position of assuring it was carried out. Hopefully, the majority of people selling guns are law abiding citizens and would adhere.

So, do you want works or what feels good inside?

That’s not a genuine question, at least I hope it’s not. I have been trying to speak on common sense controls, and how I agree with the bishops that have spoken out.

Listen very carefully, ProdidgalSon1:

If you think for a single second that people are going to give up their freedom for “the sake others,” you’re playing with fire.

Really? I believe I am following guidance from the men of the Church, and scriptures, in accepting sacrifices for others. Isn’t that what Christians are called to do? That’s what background checks amount to, for law abiding citizens, minor inconveniences.

First of all, humans have shown that they will fight for their freedom aggressively and by any means necessary. There’s a reason why the Founders said we have the right to bear arms, because tyrants get their power by disarming the population.

Where in scriptures did Christ teach us to fight any government? That’s who we answer to, over the secular.

Secondly, and of particular concern now, is that you are parroting the same talking points that gets us policies like abortion, so-called “gay marriage” and health care mandates demanding that we compromise our beliefs in the name of made-up “rights”, and I know you don’t agree with those.

Once exposed, they argue all the time at how necessary it is for us to give up more and more freedom largely for their benefit, only they do it with words like tolerance, equality (which in terms of outcomes has an exact inverse relationship to liberty) and “rights”

Our bishops speak on all the issues. We are not a single issue faith.

Yes, I’ve seen the discussion of rights, but no mention of the people who have had their rights robbed of them through someone picking up a gun and taking them from them.

This is an issue that both yourself, the far-left and the USCCB are on the losing side of because you refuse to look at human behavour.

I believe we have a higher calling, and my faith is in Him, more than anything I could ever do with a gun.

As you place me, the left, and the bishops on the same side, show us the bishop who speaks in favor of gun rights that you fully agree with?

 

[George_Stegmeir]

As an observent Catholic, the various US Bishops and Cardinals stance on legislative gun control is the one of the best arguments for separation of Church and State that I know of.

 

[Fairwinds]

As an observent Catholic, the various US Bishops and Cardinals stance on legislative gun control is the one of the best arguments for separation of Church and State that I know of.

well said. very well said.

F.

 

[pnewton]

As an observent Catholic, the various US Bishops and Cardinals stance on legislative gun control is the one of the best arguments for separation of Church and State that I know of.

There is a whole bunch of pro-abortion advocates that would agree with you on this.

 

[Fairwinds]

There is a whole bunch of pro-abortion advocates that would agree with you on this.

that’s a false analogy, and you know it

F

 

[pnewton]

that’s a false analogy, and you know it

F

No, I do not know it. It is not an even an analogy. Too many Catholics complain when the bishops don’t do enough in some areas then want them to shut up in other areas. These men are judged not based on Church teaching but Republican ideas. The statement was made concerning separation of Church and State. If moral leaders are not allowed to speak on political issues, that would also include legalization of abortion. In fact, what I said was totally true. For many feminists, the Church’s position on abortion is the number one complaint about the Catholic Church.

I am sorry if being on the same side of such people make you uncomfortable.

 

[Fairwinds]

No, I do not know it. It is not an even an analogy. Too many Catholics complain when the bishops don’t do enough in some areas then want them to shut up in other areas. These men are judged not based on Church teaching but Republican ideas. The statement was made concerning separation of Church and State. If moral leaders are not allowed to speak on political issues, that would also include legalization of abortion. In fact, what I said was totally true. For many feminists, the Church’s position on abortion is the number one complaint about the Catholic Church.

The Church speaks with absolute moral authority on abortion. I’d like to see every bishop, every pastor, every Sunday rail against abortion, even at the risk of tax exempt status. the issue is above politics.

The second amendment** is** politics. believe me, every Catholic gun owner wants to build a culture of life;at the same time, every Catholic gun owner should be worried about how this Administration is going about regulating guns. Here, the bishop’s opinion is one among many legitimate players, and, unfortunately, not a well informed one.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The Church speaks with absolute moral authority on abortion. I’d like to see every bishop, every pastor, every Sunday rail against abortion, even at the risk of tax exempt status. the issue is above politics.

The second amendment** is** politics. believe me, every Catholic gun owner wants to build a culture of life;at the same time, every Catholic gun owner should be worried about how this Administration is going about regulating guns. Here, the bishop’s opinion is one among many legitimate players, and, unfortunately, not a well informed one.

Where does the layperson receive authority to decide what is moral guidance and what is not, from our bishops? The bishops guidance is very much in line with the culture of life.

We cannot say that we cannot legislate morality with one issue and not another issue.

 

[markomalley]

Where does the layperson receive authority to decide what is moral guidance and what is not, from our bishops? The bishops guidance is very much in line with the culture of life.

We cannot say that we cannot legislate morality with one issue and not another issue.

Perhaps you can give me some Magisterial documentation that tells us that it is immoral to have the ability to defend ourselves.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Perhaps you can give me some Magisterial documentation that tells us that it is immoral to have the ability to defend ourselves.

We are allowed to defend. Now perhaps you’ll show me where defense is limited to guns only?

Also, how does this pertain to defense? Are there only certain guns one can use? Do background checks affect your ability to defend?

It’s not as presented, with your question. These controls do not stop one’s right, or instinct, to self defense.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Which is why I don’t trust state or federal authorities when they say gun control and registration of gun owners is “for our own good.” Of course liberals who trust the federal government with our tax dollars and think they’re using it to truly help the poor will probably fall for anything. But when it comes to defense spending, war on terror, etc. they don’t trust the federal government. Strange.

Couldn’t have said it better myself… The hypocrisy is amazing…