Bishop says tighter gun laws will help build culture of life

[ComputerGeek25]

My post is intended for those Catholics who insist that they are pro-life - because they support gun control and welfare - yet vote for people like Obama or other pro-abortion leaders - in effect turning a blind eye to the unborn. And there are many who fit that description. If that doesn’t describe you then you have no reason to be offended. Those very same people seem to ignore bishops who proclaim the Church teaching on the sanctity of life as applied to the unborn, yet fall over themselves saying “obey your bishop” when a bishop expresses his personal opinion on what they think is the best policy that would build a culture of life. In fact, many liberal catholics in my area ridicule and criticize those who try to be faithful to Catholic teaching/tradition etc as “docile.” Such as when we listen to our bishops when they say that our laws ought to protect the unborn - from conception to natural death. Contrast that with a bishop saying, “tighter gun laws will help build a culture of life.” Maybe it will, maybe it won’t. But can you not see: 1) there is a difference between the two. 2) liberal catholics will disobey the bishops on the black and white issue, but “obey” the bishop expressing his opinion on an issue which faithful catholics can disagree on.

Ishii

I think this is the very crux of the matter.

Abortion is always wrong.

 

[ishii]

Heb 13:17 Obey your prelates and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls: that they may do this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

No sarcasm…

That’s disengenuous. Obedience to the bishops on Church teaching, application of Catholic moral teaching on abortion, e.g. is not the same as “obeying” a bishop who expresses his personal opinion on gun control.

Ishii

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

That’s disengenuous. Obedience to the bishops on Church teaching, application of Catholic moral teaching on abortion, e.g. is not the same as “obeying” a bishop who expresses his personal opinion on gun control.

Ishii

I didn’t find the qualification you cited.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

That’s disengenuous. Obedience to the bishops on Church teaching, application of Catholic moral teaching on abortion, e.g. is not the same as “obeying” a bishop who expresses his personal opinion on gun control.

Ishii

And until the magestarium issues a statement on gun control we can argue this until we’re blue in the face.

 

[Fairwinds]

Christ never taught a moral obligation to resist ‘Caesar.’

We don’t have a ceasar. your analogy is overly simplistic and misleading. Moreover, He didn’t say we couldn’t resist ceasar and there are times and places where the moral act is to pick up a sword and resist. all that aside, because the analogy is, in fact, misleading.

I am resisting the government’s position on gun grabbery, set out in speeches by the president and his shills, in proposed bills and executive orders under consideration, and would support legal challenges as necessary. In fact, I’m supporting the constitution, to which the government answers.

F/

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

We don’t have a ceasar. your analogy is overly simplistic and misleading. Moreover, He didn’t say we couldn’t resist ceasar and there are times and places where the moral act is to pick up a sword and resist. all that aside, because the analogy is, in fact, misleading.

I am resisting the government’s position on gun grabbery, set out in speeches by the president and his shills, in proposed bills and executive orders under consideration, and would support legal challenges as necessary. In fact, I’m supporting the constitution, to which the government answers.

F/

Caesar was the ruling government then, and we have a ruling government now. He didn’t say we couldn’t do drugs either.

 

[Fairwinds]

Caesar was the ruling government then, and we have a ruling government now. He didn’t say we couldn’t do drugs either.

you’re having problems with your false analogies.

protip: don’t use the rolling eye emoticon unless you’re better at making a substantive argument.

in the USA, we don’t have a “ruling government” now or at any time. Obama is not our ruler. we have a constitution the government is subject to. the government (executive, legislative) often proposes unconstitutional laws/rules, and these are rejected by other parts of the government (judiciary) and sometimes by the voters (propositions, amendments).

abuse of drugs is immoral by nature. owing guns is not.

F/

 

[ishii]

I didn’t find the qualification you cited.

What is the Catholic teaching on abortion? Its wrong. Inherently wrong.

What is the Catholic teaching on gun laws?

Ishii

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

you’re having problems with your false analogies.

protip: don’t use the rolling eye emoticon unless you’re better at making a substantive argument.

in the USA, we don’t have a “ruling government” now or at any time. Obama is not our ruler. we have a constitution the government is subject to. the government (executive, legislative) often proposes unconstitutional laws/rules, and these are rejected by other parts of the government (judiciary) and sometimes by the voters (propositions, amendments).

abuse of drugs is immoral by nature. owing guns is not.

F/

Just as you said, ‘He didn’t say we couldn’t resist ceasar,’ I added, ‘He didn’t say we couldn’t do drugs,’ and added the sarcasm icon, so it was recognized as such.

It’s not a false analogy, but comparative to what Christ spoke of during His time. The Roman government was much worse than the government we have today. But, if one want’s to argue that point, ‘He didn’t say we have to follow constitutions.’

Guns have been used to take lives of innocents, very comparable to abortions. The bishops that have spoken out, and referenced the deaths; which makes it applicable to their statements of a ‘culture of life.’ It seems that some want to argue that not all bishops have spoken, so it’s automatically support for. That’s not the case. In many instances a spokesman bishop speak for their respective committee. The USCCB issues statements, and if no one speaks out against, it would seem logical they are in agreement. If those statements, from those that speak out, were incorrect, where are the bishops offering the correction?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

What is the Catholic teaching on abortion? Its wrong. Inherently wrong.

What is the Catholic teaching on gun laws?

Ishii

Everything that is dogma/doctrine was not defined as such until recent times. Teachings evolve in the secular world, and only when there is a need does the Church define. What the bishops speak today is teaching. Look at the liberties being taken with the Catechism. People are assuming a legitimate authority, that it speaks of, and ignoring the guidance being offered through the ‘oral’ teaching.

 

[Fairwinds]

…
Guns have been used to take lives of innocents, very comparable to abortions?

another false analogy … is there a special source you have for these? under your false reasoning, “cars have been used to take the lives of innocents, very comparable to abortions”.

saline solution and forceps are often used to take the lives of innocents, but they’re things, they’re not immoral and have many more moral uses than immoral ones.

my trap and clays guns have killed hundreds of thousands of clay targets, but they’re things, they’re not immoral. they’ve never killed anyone.

I really don’t care about the Roman government, I’m just exposing your false, and harmful, reasoning.

F/

 

[Fairwinds]

Everything that is dogma/doctrine was not defined as such until recent times. Teachings evolve in the secular world, and only when there is a need does the Church define. What the bishops speak today is teaching. Look at the liberties being taken with the Catechism. People are assuming a legitimate authority, that it speaks of, and ignoring the guidance being offered through the ‘oral’ teaching.

I don’t care about your opinion. cite the Magisterial teaching on gun control, chapter and verse.

as a good Catholic, I’ll obey it, letter and spirit.

if you can’t (you can’t), then limits on the second amendment are up for debate and I obey my fully formed conscience.

F/

 

[ishii]

Guns have been used to take lives of innocents, very comparable to abortions.

Oh dear, should we outlaw vacuums then? Or control them? Or more appropriately, should we prosecute and imprison those who use those things to committ acts of evil, instead of focusing on the tools they used to committ those acts.

 The bishops that have spoken out, and referenced the deaths; which makes it applicable to their statements of a 'culture of life.'  It seems that some want to argue that not all bishops have spoken, so it's automatically support for.  That's not the case.  In many instances a spokesman bishop speak for their respective committee.  The USCCB issues statements, and if no one speaks out against, it would seem logical they are in agreement. If those statements, from those that speak out, were incorrect, where are the bishops offering the correction?

I ask again, what is Church teaching on gun control? What is Church teaching on tax rates? 30%? 40% top rate? How long should people be able to get unemployment? The point is, there is no official teaching on these matters specifically. Abortion, on the other hand, the Church specifically states that our laws must protect the unborn - i.e. that the practice should be outlawed in a morally just society. See the difference? The reason why I point this out, is that liberals often point to Church social teaching as a reason why they support higher taxes, welfare state, etc. And now gun control. But the Church teaching is does not state what measures exactly we should take to have fairness in the economy, e.g. But the Church very specifically states that abortion is evil and should be outlawed. But liberal catholics often ignore or downplay that.

Ishii

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

another false analogy … is there a special source you have for these? under your false reasoning, “cars have been used to take the lives of innocents, very comparable to abortions”.

saline solution and forceps are often used to take the lives of innocents, but they’re things, they’re not immoral and have many more moral uses than immoral ones.

my trap and clays guns have killed hundreds of thousands of clay targets, but they’re things, they’re not immoral. they’ve never killed anyone.

I really don’t care about the Roman government, I’m just exposing your false, and harmful, reasoning.

F/

We’re going to disagree, and that doesn’t make either side ‘false,’ and it makes one question the choice of words.

Forceps and saline are useful, as guns can be useful. There is no difference. The differences is in how they are used. I use forceps and saline everyday that I work, in attempts to stabilize and save lives, the same as law enforcement uses their guns, at times.

Clay guns are not the primary weapon being viewed as a danger to society, by the greatest majority of people in this country. Universal background checks would have no impact on clay shooting. It’s not an all or nothing scenario.

The analogies are the same. Christ said render unto Caesar that which is Caesars. His picture is not on our money, or the ‘constitution;’ the constitution came from the formation of government.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I ask again, what is Church teaching on gun control? What is Church teaching on tax rates? 30%? 40% top rate? How long should people be able to get unemployment? The point is, there is no official teaching on these matters specifically. Abortion, on the other hand, the Church specifically states that our laws must protect the unborn - i.e. that the practice should be outlawed in a morally just society. See the difference?

Ishii

All the issues you list, and many more, affect the dignity of life for people. The Church teaches on a dignity of life for all, from conception to natural death. When we label some as ‘not official,’ we run the danger of being in err, and open the door to picking and choosing that which fits our personal view. As I’ve mentioned several times, we have a collection of men of the Church that have spoken on the subject, with no dissenting voices. They are the voice of guidance.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I don’t care about your opinion. cite the Magisterial teaching on gun control, chapter and verse.

as a good Catholic, I’ll obey it, letter and spirit.

if you can’t (you can’t), then limits on the second amendment are up for debate and I obey my fully formed conscience.

F/

I’ve learned that following scriptures is following Magisterial teaching. The two are not at odds with each other The bishops are our voice of guidance. We don’t dismiss them because we don’t like what they say. We strive to fit our views to the Church, and all she has to offer.

We are obligated to form a faith based conscience and act on it. We can do no more. Even then the Catechism speaks of the possibility of being in err with our conscience.

 

[ishii]

All the issues you list, and many more, affect the dignity of life for people.

Agree.

The Church teaches on a dignity of life for all, from conception to natural death. When we label some as ‘not official,’ we run the danger of being in err, and open the door to picking and choosing that which fits our personal view. As I’ve mentioned several times, we have a collection of men of the Church that have spoken on the subject, with no dissenting voices. They are the voice of guidance.

But can’t you see the difference between: 1) Church saying we need to promote the dignity of all - e.g. workers in an economy, but does not lay out specifically how to achieve that (what fiscal, monetary policies, etc.) and 2) the Church saying abortion is evil and should be outlawed or gay marriage is evil and should be outlawed.

Ishii

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Agree.

But can’t you see the difference between: 1) Church saying we need to promote the dignity of all - e.g. workers in an economy, but does not lay out specifically how to achieve that (what fiscal, monetary policies, etc.) and 2) the Church saying abortion is evil and should be outlawed or gay marriage is evil and should be outlawed.

Ishii

There are no differences. The Church, and Christ, calls on us to ‘act.’ We don’t delay until we can reach a ‘political,’ secular, agreement.

 

[Fairwinds]

We’re going to disagree, and that doesn’t make either side ‘false,’ and it makes one question the choice of words…

it means that you’re wrong.

the bishops wants to ban “assault weapons” (check post 1 for text).

I have target rifles that I use at NRA and CMP matches, according to grabberspeak, these (AR-15, M1, M14) are “assault weapons”.

the bishop wants to ban them; I agree with his culture of life notions, but banning won’t make that happen and is harmful to the US in many other ways. unless the Church teaching on semi automatic rifles is to the contrary, the bishop’s political opinion is flat out wrong.

F/

 

[Samson01]

My fo-parish Priest would argue your view. He carries concealed. A couple of years ago he heard some noises coming from the church and he went to investigate. He came across a guy trying to break into the poor box with a knife. When confronted, the guy came at h with the knife and he had to draw his weapon to stop him. He detained until cops arrived. He later ministered to him at the jail. We had an interesting homily about the Church’s position or lack thereof concerning self defense and weapon ownership.