Bishop Schneider to Pope Francis: For the Sake of Your Soul, Retract Approval of Same-Sex Civil Unions

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The “clarification” issued by the Vatican did two things:
  1. Showed that the two quotes from the Pope regarding homosexual people - “they deserve a family” and the civil unions quote were indeed separate quotes that had been editied together to give the appearance of one quote with a much different meaning. That was good.
  2. They simply reaffirmed the Pope’s words regarding his previous support for civil-unions for homosexuals. That was…not so good.
 
upant said:
The church doesn’t, the difference needs to be reconciled. There is a need for clarification. Is he changing the position of the church?
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It would appear so, to the extent the Church actually had a position. I am aware of the prior CDF opinion, but to the extent that was the “position” of the Church, the Pope is certainly able to change that.
 
With all due respect, you understand incorrectly. A teaching of the Church cannot be changed - that would imply that what was once true or moral is no longer true or moral, or what was once untrue or immoral is no longer untrue or immoral. That is totally contrary to our Catholic belief and logic.
 
TMC said:
It would appear so, to the extent the Church actually had a position. I am aware of the prior CDF opinion, but to the extent that was the “position” of the Church, the Pope is certainly able to change that.
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Both the ancient Jews and the Catholic church have always taught that anyone who has homosexual sex has committed a sin.
sealabeag said:
The Pope can change Church teaching?
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Never. Period.
 
sealabeag said:
With all due respect, you understand incorrectly. A teaching of the Church cannot be changed - that would imply that what was once true or moral is no longer true or moral, or what was once untrue or immoral is no longer untrue or immoral. That is totally contrary to our Catholic belief and logic.
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With all due respect back, you are incorrect. Church teachings do change (or “evolve” if that word sits better) and have changed as recently as the recent change to the teaching on the death penalty.

Regardless, I said the Pope changed the teaching to the extent there is one. I actually don’t think there is. The CDF opined during some time back that Catholics should not support civil unions. Even if you believe the Pope lacks teaching authority (and odd belief for a Catholic), surely you would then agree that the CDF does not have teaching authority?
 
I don’t see we’re going to agree, so probably best not to flog a dead horse. If you think that the Catholic Church can teach one thing today and change it and teach something else tomorrow, then we are in very different camps. The Pope’s comments on the death penalty are a prudential judgement with which I disagree, which I am free to do.
 
sealabeag said:
I don’t see we’re going to agree, so probably best not to flog a dead horse. If you think that the Catholic Church can teach one thing today and change it and teach something else tomorrow, then we are in very different camps.
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That’s not what I said, but I agree we won’t agree.
sealabeag said:
The Pope’s comments on the death penalty are a prudential judgement with which I disagree, which I am free to do.
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This is just plain wrong - a formal change to the Catechism is neither a “comment” or a “prudential judgment.”
 
TMC said:
This is just plain wrong - a formal change to the Catechism is neither a “comment” or a “prudential judgment.”
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This has been discussed to death on this forum - the answer is clear - the Catechism is not a vehicle for pronouncing “new” teachings - it is simply a collection of the eternal truths of the Catholic faith. A Pope doesn’t just stick new things in it and we have a new teaching. That’s not how it works. With regards to the Popes comments on the death penalty, they are his opinions. For 2000 years the Church has approved of the death penalty. Whether it is necessary in our times is certainly up for debate, though.
 
sealabeag said:
This has been discussed to death on this forum - the answer is clear - the Catechism is not a vehicle for pronouncing “new” teachings - it is simply a collection of the eternal truths of the Catholic faith.
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Yes, its been discussed to death, but internet posters can’t deprive the Pope of teaching authority. I am well aware those that dissent from the Church’s teaching are insisting it is optional, but that is not how it works.
 
Well, like I said, we shall have to agree to disagree and leave it there. 🙂
 
TMC said:
The Pope’s statement (and his position) says nothing about the morality of any sex act.
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Wasn’t his statement originally about gay unions and not platonic unions as some want to believe.

The act is part and parcel of a gay civil union. It is naive to think otherwise
 
upant said:
Wasn’t his statement originally about gay unions and not platonic unions as some want to believe.
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Yes, of course.
upant said:
The act is part and parcel of a gay civil union. It is naive to think otherwise
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Yes, but one can agree that someone has a right to legal protection, without endorsing everything that person does.
 
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