Bishopes oppose celebacy rule

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Some of Catholic law is man made, and this is already known! There is a difference between dogma and discipline. Celibate priests is a discipline…it is possible to be changed. Whether its a good idea or not is a debate. Male priests is dogma…it can never be changed, even if the church wanted to change it for some reason.

Those are just some examples. It is already well known which rules are God made, and which are church disciplines. You just gotta do some research to know the difference. 🙂
The Catholic Church was not established by men, it was established by Jesus Christ. Paul, who persecuted Christians in the Bible, was later directly contacted by God and received the Holy Spirit. The leadership of the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. In the late 1960s, the exact same call to relax the celibacy requirement from a few in the Church was made. It did not work then either.

God bless,
Ed
 
Leela! you are correct. Not even the slightest of those atrocities should have occurred. Not a single one. I hold Priests to a higher standard. I don’t expect them to falter. I don’t expect them to err. I don’t expect them to harm a single soul. But, that’s just me. I will pray for them and pray for the hopes that it never happens again in this most Holy Church of Christ.

God bless,
jd
Okay, but I’ve heard it said lots and lots of times that gays are not allowed to become priests. Why is that? Why is there any concern about who it is that priests are not having sex with? Why do Catholics want priests to be attracted to women if priests are not to act on any sexual attraction anyway?
 
My understanding is that the prohibition of marriage for priests came about historically as a concern for keeping the property accumulated by priests within the church rather than passed down to a priest’s children.
From what I understand, they used to burn a lot of “witches” for the same reason, so the Church could claim their property.
 
Okay, but I’ve heard it said lots and lots of times that gays are not allowed to become priests. Why is that? Why is there any concern about who it is that priests are not having sex with? Why do Catholics want priests to be attracted to women if priests are not to act on any sexual attraction anyway?
Well, Leela, if we were to put on our “thinking caps” it might dawn on us that the Church did not want what the past 40 years have wrought! I know I wouldn’t.

You can’t have it both ways. On one hand, you want the Church to actively do something about gay molestations. On the other, you assert that the Church is too harsh by not allowing gays into it. I don’t get it, Leela, truly!

Haven’t I shown you that it is gays that are responsible for the current demise of the American Church? Yet, you want the Church to continue those practices that caused it? Is Satan speaking through you? Wake up! You’re at your computer keyboard! You’re about to write something irrational! Get a grip. Throw Satan down! Leela! (Yelling) :eek:

God bless,
jd
 
Okay, but I’ve heard it said lots and lots of times that gays are not allowed to become priests. Why is that? Why is there any concern about who it is that priests are not having sex with? Why do Catholics want priests to be attracted to women if priests are not to act on any sexual attraction anyway?
Christ had control. He lived a life of control. He died a horrible death, still in control. At any point in time, He could have cried out, “Enough!” “This is bogus!” “I don’t want to go through with this!” “Mother, take me home.” Yet, He maintained His control to the very end. If you are going to be Christ-on-earth to the flock, you must have, and, maintain, control.

Now that doesn’t mean that some men that became Priests don’t falter. That doesn’t mean that some don’t lose control. It’s not a perfect world. Our lives are not perfectly ordered. When a man becomes a Priest, he marries Jesus and His Mystical Body. To allow marriage is to permit “cheating on your spouse.”

Where would the control be then? Husbands and wives have fights. Husbands and wives sometimes become so torn that they go out and do stupid things. (Trust me, I know!) A Priest for the Holy Catholic Church must be taller than that.

God bless,
jd
 
Leela! you are correct. Not even the slightest of those atrocities should have occurred. Not a single one.** I hold Priests to a higher standard. I don’t expect them to falter. I don’t expect them to err. I don’t expect them to harm a single soul.** But, that’s just me. I will pray for them and pray for the hopes that it never happens again in this most Holy Church of Christ.
Hi jd,
Thank you for your posts. I agree with the above. That is why this abuse scandal is such a tragedy. The percentage figures you gave re abusive priests was way higher than the figure for those convicted here in Ireland. Still, it continues to prove to be a sufficiently weighty weapon with which to bash the Church; as everyone knows that Catholicism is an easy target.
As ed west said in his post, the leadership of the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.
I think we should give thanks always for this; and, as you rightly say, pray for those who err and who would lead others astray.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
 
If it does change. Then this would prove that some Catholic law is human convention. This would cause a problem. Since how much more of Catholic law is mere human convention? I would feel very betrayed by the catholic leaders if they changed it, because it would mean they have been lying to me.
I hate to give you the bad news, but other than things learned from revelation all Catholic laws are human convention.
 
If it does change. Then this would prove that some Catholic law is human convention. This would cause a problem. Since how much more of Catholic law is mere human convention? I would feel very betrayed by the catholic leaders if they changed it, because it would mean they have been lying to me.
They’ve already changed it in the past. They’ve changed other disciplines about sex within marriage (there was a time it couldn’t be done the night before receiving the eucharist), the way reconciliation is done, food restrictions, etc.

I’m not saying it should be done, just that it wouldn’t mean they had lied to anyone.
 
While celibacy for the priesthood may be an “apostolic norm” so is the married priesthood.

Both have been around since the beginning of the Church and continue to this day. Only the Latin Catholic Church mandates celibacy for its secular priests.

Priests have never been allowed to get married but married men have throughout the history of the Church been ordained to the priesthood. This continues to this day in the Eastern Catholic Churches and through the pastoral provision in the Latin Church with a dispensation from Rome.

Celibacy for the secular priesthood is a discipline, it is not doctrine nor dogma.

It is clear that at least one of the apostles was married (Peter). It is not clear whether or not she was alive at the time of Peter’s calling nor is it clear that if she was alive he left her to follow Jesus.
 
They’ve already changed it in the past. They’ve changed other disciplines about sex within marriage (there was a time it couldn’t be done the night before receiving the eucharist), the way reconciliation is done, food restrictions, etc.

I’m not saying it should be done, just that it wouldn’t mean they had lied to anyone.
Do you know of any books that can tell me what is largely superficial and what is not in the Catholic faith? This issue is really beginning to get me angry.
 
MindOverMatter

If the rule is changed, you should not feel betrayed, unless you were led to believe that from the start priests were not allowed to be married. In fact, celibacy did not become officially a requirement for secular priests (though it always was for monastic priests) until about 1000 A.D. That means that the Church has two conventions, each about a thousand years old. Celibacy is a convention, and conventions change because they are changeable when it is most needed that they be changed. With the desperate need to evangelize the world once again, and with the pathetically low number of single men willing to enter the priesthood unless they are gay, there is a good argument that now we should return to the model for priesthood prevalent in the early Church, when the Church grew by leaps and bounds because there was no marital impediment to men finding a vocation.

Personally, I think it would be a great idea to open up the priesthood to permanent married deacons who have finished raising their children. These deacons should not have the right to be ordained, but should have the right to apply for ordination and go through the appropriate course of study required. Their wives should be totally on board as helpmates and associates in this process. Such applicants should be subjected to the same tests for character as those given to priests in formation, so that heterosexual pedophiles can be prevented from entering the priesthood, to the extent that it is possible anyway.
 
Do you know of any books that can tell me what is largely superficial and what is not in the Catholic faith? This issue is really beginning to get me angry.
Yes. the two volume set called, The Teachings of the Catholic Church, edited by George D. Smith, D.D., Ph.D., The Macmillan Company. Catholic book stores should be able to get it for you. I bought Vol. I while attending St. Thomas University. The second volume, I bought in a University of Miami college book store. So, they’re around.

God bless,
jd
 
ByzCath
While celibacy for the priesthood may be an “apostolic norm” so is the married priesthood. Both have been around since the beginning of the Church and continue to this day. Only the Latin Catholic Church mandates celibacy for its secular priests.
False.
While not a doctrine, an Apostolic “norm” means rules, including commands and prohibitions; “rule” means a prescribed guide for conduct; “prescribe” means issue commands or orders for; tradition means an inherited pattern of thought and action; custom means habitual practice of longstanding; practice means a customary way of acting; requirement means indispensable – the celibacy required for priests from the apostles was mandatory, and obligatory.

“In 1969 Christian Cocchini, S.J. completed his doctoral thesis at the Institut Catholique, on the history of clerical celibacy. The president of the examiners who approved his dissertation was Cardinal Danielou. Cocchini’s mastery of the sources from the New Testament to the seventh century is unequalled.

This is what he found:
“From the beginnings of the Church, and throughout the Greco-Latin world, a single rule prevailed: Priests were celibate; or else, if they had married before ordination, they and their wives promised to live together thereafter without the use of the marriage. This rule was an Apostolic norm; it was proclaimed and practiced by the Apostles; and that norm in turn was founded upon the example of our Lord Himself.

“Clerics were often chosen from among married older men. After ordination they were required to abstain from conjugal intercourse. In effect then, they were not married. Qui habent uxores, tamquam non habentes sint. “Let those who are married live as if they do not have wives”. Pope Leo the Great in 458 AD borrowed those words of Saint Paul in order to describe the celibacy of the clergy.” (I Cor. 7:29). [Letter from Pope Leo to Rusticus, Bishop of Narbonne]. The Origin Of Priestly Celibacy, by Hugh Ballantyne, June 2003]

Fr Anthony Zimmerman refers to *Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy *by Fr. Christian Cochini, S.J.(Ignatius, San Francisco, 1990) “which argues cogently from the sources that the tradition of clerical celibacy began with the apostles. If that is true, then opponents of obligatory celibacy oppose not the pope, but the twelve apostles. The book, written by Christian Cochini, S.J. (translated from French, Ignatius Press, 1990), merited this remarkable encomium from the late Henri Cardinal de Lubac: ‘This work is of the first importance. It is the result of serious and extensive research. There is nothing even remotely comparable to this work in this whole 20th century.’ And Curator of the Vatican Library, Fr. Alfons M. Stickler (later Cardinal) wrote: ‘This authoritative work is fully in accordance with the tradition of the Society of Jesus in the area of high-level scientific apostolate’ (Foreword to Cochini’s book)."
mcteague
other than things learned from revelation all Catholic laws are human convention.
False.
Christ’s Church teaches through dogma and doctrine, and gave us the Sacred Scriptures as the Word of God; the NT written by Her apostles.
 
“Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach,” Timothy 3:2

“For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you, on condition that a man be blameless, married only once, with believing children who are not accused of licentiousness or rebellious.” Titus 1:6

Married clergy sounds like an early convention to me on Paul’s own authority.
 
Charlemagne II
“Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach,” Timothy 3:2
“For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you, on condition that a man be blameless, married only once, with believing children who are not accused of licentiousness or rebellious.” Titus 1:6
Married clergy sounds like an early convention to me on Paul’s own authority.
Not really.

From *The Ancient Tradition of Clerical Celibacy *by Mary R. Schneider
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=7663&CFID=51739617&CFTOKEN=57277060

“The roots of clerical celibacy can be found, of course, in Scripture. Jesus, who never married, exhorted those who could accept it to renounce marriage for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt 19:12). Many early Christians eagerly responded to Christ’s invitation and in the early Church, "even before the beginnings of monasticism in the 4th century, celibacy accepted for the Kingdom of God appears as the perfection of Christian holiness, second only to martyrdom."2 St. Paul also addressed the question of clerical marriage, writing that “A bishop must be irreproachable, married but once” (1 Tim. 3:2) and that “he must manage his household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity” (1 Tim. 3:4).3 He laid down the same requirements for deacons (1 Tim. 3:12) and priests (Titus 1:6).

“These passages clearly indicate that Orders were conferred on married men but at the same time they prohibit Orders from being conferred on men who were married more than once. Moreover, St. Paul told the Corinthians not to take wives if they were single and instructed those who had wives to live as though they did not (1 Cor. 7:27-9), adding, “An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please the Lord. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided.” (1 Cor. 7:32-4) These passages of Scripture were adopted by the early Church, which forbade the ordination of bigamists, the remarriage of clerics, and marriage after ordination.”

From the beginning, continence was required for priest and bishop – for Early Church Tradition the most important studies are: Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy, by Fr. Christian Cochini, S.J.(Ignatius, San Francisco, 1990); The Case for Clerical Celibacy, by Alfons Maria Cardinal Stickler (Ignatius, San Francisco, 1995); Celibacy in the Early Church, by Fr. Stefan Heid, (Ignatius, San Francisco, 2000).

Based on solid documentation, these authors show that although one cannot speak of celibacy in the strict sense of the word (not being married), it is certain that since apostolic times the Church had as a norm that men elevated to the deaconate, priesthood and the episcopate should observe continence. If candidates happened to be married – a very common occurrence in the early Church – they were supposed to cease, with the consent of their spouses, not only marital life but even cohabitation under the same roof.
 
“Three Roman Catholic bishops, **reacting to damaging sexual abuse scandals **in their ranks, have urged the church to consider easing its celibacy requirement for priests.”

This statement is so incredibly stupid that I’m sickened by it.

Single men who abuse children - should they marry - will sexually abuse their own children.
 
Where does Paul, or any other apostle, say that married priests and bishops must desist from having relations with their wives, or even cease to live with them?

If the authority is supposed to be apostolic, it has to be clear that it is apostolic.
 
Charlemagne II
Where does Paul, or any other apostle, say that married priests and bishops must desist from having relations with their wives, or even cease to live with them?
catholic-legate.com/Apologetics/TheSacraments/Dialogues/ClericalCelibacyDefended.aspx
Here, Art Sippo refers to “3 recent studies on the Apostolic origins of clerical celibacy: Clerical Celibacy by Fr. Roman Cholij, *The Apostolic Origin of Priestly Celibacy *by Fr. Christian Cochini, and The Case for Clerical Celibacy : Its Historical Development and Theological Foundations by Alfons Maria Cardinal Stickler. They all show that the celibacy of the clergy can be traced historically to Apostolic times and the practice of the Apostles themselves.”

The basis for the Apostolic norm in relation to St Paul is explored in The Biblical Foundation of Priestly Celibacy, by Ignace de la Potterie
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_bfoun_en.html
The author writes: “So what does it mean that the minister of the Church should be «the husband of one wife»? In the following pages we shall first try to show that the formula unius uxoris vir, up to the fourth century, was understood, as Stickler so well puts it, «in the sense of a biblical argument in favour of celibacy of *apostolic *inspiration: for the Pauline norm was interpreted in the sense of a guarantee assuring effective observance of continence by ministers who were already married before they were ordained.»9
Note 9. A.M. Stickler, in Cochini, (ut supra), Préface, pp. 5-6 (our italics).

“In the second part, we shall take a step forward: we shall propose a deeper theological interpretation of the Pauline stipulation itself, to show that, already in New Testament times it actually does propose the model for the ministerial priesthood of a marital relationship between Christ the bridegroom and the Church his bride, on the basis of the mystical view of marriage which St Paul frequently mentions in his letters (cf 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:22-32).10 From this, it will become abundantly clear that, for married ministers, their ordination implied an invitation to live in continence thereafter.”
Note10. Cf our article La struttura di alieanza del sacerdozio ministeriale, in Communio 112 (July-August 1990), 102-114, where we summarise the results of the previous study: Man d’une seule femme, (vide supra), in order to apply them specifically both to the case of priestly celibacy and to that of the priesthood of men (not of women).
Note 15 states: “…if it were true, as these Fathers thought, that the Apostle regarded ‘monogamy’ as guaranteeing suitability for continence, we should then have to suppose that, for Paul, it was a known fact «either that the wife was dead or that the candidate was to live with her as with a sister: which unfortunately the Pauline text does not make clear.» This is true. But the Pauline text does contain a literary contact with 2 Cor 11:2 (vide infra), which allows the indirect recovery of the theme of continence as a covenantal theme.”

His conclusion includes:

“For him [St Paul], unius uxoris vir was a covenantal formula: it introduced the married minister into the marriage relationship between Christ and the Church; for Paul, the Church was a ‘pure virgin’, it was the ‘bride’ of Christ. But this connection between the minister and Christ, due to the sacrament of ordination, today no longer requires as human support for the symbolism a real marriage on the part of the minister; so the formula is still valid for priests of the Church, although they are not married. Hence, that which in the past was continence for married ministers, in our own day becomes the celibacy of those who are not. Yet the symbolic and spiritual meaning of the expression unius uxoris vir remains ever the same. Indeed, since it contains a direct reference to the covenant, that is to say, to the marriage relationship between Christ and the Church, it invites us to attach much greater importance today than in the past to the fact that the minister of the Church represents Christ the bridegroom to the Church his bride. In this sense, the priest must be «the husband of one wife»; but that one wife, his bride, is the Church who, like Mary, is the bride of Christ

“It is precisely thus that on various occasions John Paul II expresses himself in his post-synodal Apostolic Exhortation Pastores dabo vobis. By way of conclusion, we quote some of the more telling passages from it.

“In n. 12, having said that, as regards the identity of the priest, his relationship with the Church must take second place to his relationship with Christ, the Pope goes on: «As a mystery, the Church is essentially related to Jesus Christ. She is his fullness, his body, his spouse… The priest finds the full truth of his identity in being a derivation, a specific participation in and continuation of Christ himself, the one High Priest of the new and eternal covenant; the priest is a living and transparent image of Christ the Priest. The priesthood of Christ, the expression of his absolute ‘newness’ in salvation history, constitutes the one source and essential model of the priesthood shared by all Christians and the priest in particular. Reference to Christ is thus the absolutely necessary key for understanding the reality of priesthood.» On the basis of this very close union between the priest and Christ, the deep theological reason for celibacy is easier to grasp.”
 
To post #38, the author also writes: “In the second part, we shall take a step forward: we shall propose a deeper theological interpretation of the Pauline stipulation itself, to show that, already in New Testament times it actually does propose the model for the ministerial priesthood of a marital relationship between Christ the bridegroom and the Church his bride, on the basis of the mystical view of marriage which St Paul frequently mentions in his letters (cf 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:22-32).10 From this, it will become abundantly clear that, for married ministers, their ordination implied an invitation to live in continence thereafter.”

Note10. Cf our article La struttura di alieanza del sacerdozio ministeriale, in Communio 112 (July-August 1990), 102-114, where we summarise the results of the previous study: Man d’une seule femme, (vide supra), in order to apply them specifically both to the case of priestly celibacy and to that of the priesthood of men (not of women).
 
Abu

for the Pauline norm was interpreted in the sense of a guarantee assuring effective observance of continence by ministers who were already married before they were ordained

If in the early Church celibacy was so vitally important to the formation of married presbyters, it seems odd that Paul does not mention that in any of his epistles. Nor, I think, can any other apostle be cited on this matter, including Peter, who would have more reason than anyone else to speak on the matter since he was a married bishop. Surely if circumcision of the gentiles was a matter sufficient to call the Council of Jerusalem, celibacy should also have been on the agenda. But it wasn’t. So I’m a little confused about why this attitude toward celibacy is traced to apostolic times when the apostles are not even on record for so important a matter as clerical celibacy. Yes, later writers are on record, but they don’t qualify as asserting apostolic authority. It therefore seems to me that celibacy is a later convention which the Fathers wisely adopted for reasons particular to their time, rather than a dogma that we all have to believe in forever and ever.

“Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach,” Timothy 3:2

“For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you, on condition that a man be blameless, married only once, with believing children who are not accused of licentiousness or rebellious.” Titus 1:6

Where is the word “continent” or “celibate”?
 
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