Bishops Blast Creighton Proposal To Allow Sex Before Marriage

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Read what John Paul II said above–the fact that these guys are being “blasted” by the Bishop, shows they did not submit their teaching to him for approval. Likewise, as the First Vatican Council taught, if you deny the right of the Church to ban such teaching, you separate yourself from the society of the faithful.
Well…first they would not need to submit the article to him…

I have no idea if they sought a mandatum as prescribed in Ex Corde or not…

Nor do I truly think it matters…even if they had a mandatum, there would probably be some issues rising out of an article such as this.
 
Where does the Catechism say alumni are obliged to support this kind of stuff?

So the students are being held hostage to force alumni to support this sort of stuff?
They are not obligated to support this ‘kind of stuff’…I simply think it’s silly to withold support from the university over it…heck…send a check to the university for a specific department or purpose…just avoid giving to the family and marriage center if that helps.
 
restrictions—social, economic, educational, and professional—that contemporary society imposes on them are removed
It sounds like a lame excuse to have a sexual relationship that is dissoluble. Hey, that sounds an aweful like modern marriage in a secular society - imagine that? The similarities much be purely coincidental
Except, of course, that the male can more easily bug out and avoid responsibility for his children.
 
Well…first they would not need to submit the article to him…

I have no idea if they sought a mandatum as prescribed in Ex Corde or not…

Nor do I truly think it matters…even if they had a mandatum, there would probably be some issues rising out of an article such as this.
As Catholic academics at a Catholic University, they have specific duties–they do not have the license that secularist college professors have. If you’re going to challenge Church’s teaching on co-habitation and sex before marriage, you are under a duty to work together with the Magisterial authority.

Likewise, these academics also failed the other paragraphs aboce concering Catholic universities–they said a teaching that tickles the ears of the world, instead of the hard truth upheld by the Church.
 
As Catholic academics at a Catholic University, they have specific duties–they do not have the license that secularist college professors have. If you’re going to challenge Church’s teaching on co-habitation and sex before marriage, you are under a duty to work together with the Magisterial authority.

Likewise, these academics also failed the other paragraphs aboce concering Catholic universities–they said a teaching that tickles the ears of the world, instead of the hard truth upheld by the Church.
They made a suggestion based in history on how the church could possibly change its stance on something…

Near as I can tell, they did not represent this as a change in the teaching of the church…nor are the counseling people to do these things.

Theologians are not expected to simply parrott the catechism…but they do have to take responsibility for their ideas.

Last I checked, there is no prohibition against the discussion of marriage.
 
They are not obligated to support this ‘kind of stuff’…I simply think it’s silly to withold support from the university over it…heck…send a check to the university for a specific department or purpose…just avoid giving to the family and marriage center if that helps.
If the university tolerates this stuff, then supporting the university is supporting this stuff. The university must be motivated to impose the kind of discipline we expect as Catholics.

Pick out a needy student and send the check directly to him or her.
 
If the university tolerates this stuff, then supporting the university is supporting this stuff. The university must be motivated to impose the kind of discipline we expect as Catholics.

Pick out a needy student and send the check directly to him or her.
Its the kind of discipline YOU expect as a Catholic. I don’t think you can speak for all of us on this one.
 
Read what John Paul II said above–the fact that these guys are being “blasted” by the Bishop, shows they did not submit their teaching to him for approval. Likewise, as the First Vatican Council taught, if you deny the right of the Church to ban such teaching, you separate yourself from the society of the faithful.
While I do not agree with the concepts in the article (as I found them in a very brief scan), IMO they are not “teaching” or intended to be “teaching” and therefore your comments are immaterial.
 
They made a suggestion based in history on how the church could possibly change its stance on something…

Near as I can tell, they did not represent this as a change in the teaching of the church…nor are the counseling people to do these things.

Theologians are not expected to simply parrott the catechism…but they do have to take responsibility for their ideas.

Last I checked, there is no prohibition against the discussion of marriage.
Are you seriously defending their proposal? I read the article and it makes no sense. As I posted above, their vision is not substantively different than what the secular world does. It would allow for and condone sex and even children without “consummating” the union or making in “indissoluble”. It’s the most ridiculous proposal I’ve seen regarding marriage in the context of the Church. I find it hard to believe that college researchers actually came up with this nonsense and are presenting it as an academic exercise. There is no way that I would send my kids to Creighton if they allow this kind of error to be published in their name.
 
The article in U.S. Catholic didn’t seem all that scholarly. The authors assert that the idea of betrothal follwed by marriage has been accepted by the Church in the past. Well, of course.
It still is.

They also state that sex following betrothal was considered “marital” sex, but they didn’t provide any historical evidence to back up that assertion.
I too, did not find the article that scholarly. They committed the academics “cardinal sin” of looking at a historical situation through a modern lens. While it may be true that betrothal followed by marriage, even living together was accepted, what else was going on at the time? In the pre-industrial Western world, especially in rural areas, many Catholics were served by roaming preachers who came to say Mass every few months. Might couples have set up “house” prior to the padre’s arrival? Society also viewed betrothal as much more of a serious commitment that an “engagement” is viewed today. A man who broke a betrothal was considered a scoundrel and unfit for marriage to another.

This was the same time period where bastards were not eligible to inherit land or property nor to enter the priesthood. Why would a couple purposely begin fertile sexual relations with the possibility of bringing bastard children into the world where they would be second class citizens at best?

Much, much earlier (like in Mary and Joseph’s time), betrothals were more as the authors described. But Marriages were not Sacramental either. The laws and society’s orientation were geared toward protecting the bond until the ceremony. That certainly isn’t the case today.

Most disturbing to me was the authors’ proposal that a period of discernment and pre-marriage education be conducted during the betrothal. This would indicate that the couple has not made a lifelong commitment, as the authors would have us believe, but rather is treating this as a “trial” marriage. No harm - no foul if it doesn’t work. :eek:
 
Are you seriously defending their proposal? I read the article and it makes no sense. As I posted above, their vision is not substantively different than what the secular world does. It would allow for and condone sex and even children without “consummating” the union or making in “indissoluble”. It’s the most ridiculous proposal I’ve seen regarding marriage in the context of the Church. I find it hard to believe that college researchers actually came up with this nonsense and are presenting it as an academic exercise. There is no way that I would send my kids to Creighton if they allow this kind of error to be published in their name.
Nah…I’m not really defending it…to me it’s just an article…lots of them get published every day…and I don’t see a reason to get all up in arms about this one.

Creighton didn’t publish this…US Catholic did…
 
“It’s OK, honey. We can have sex now, and get married later. And here’s an article to show that the Church is OK with it.” Wow, what more could a guy ask for?
If I read it in a Catholic magazine, then it MUST be true. I know a Priest who says it’s OK. I’ll still respect you in the morning. Honest!
 
The article in U.S. Catholic didn’t seem all that scholarly.
That was my impression. They mention all this stuff in the past but didn’t seem to give any references.

I thought you had a fair assessment
Alumni should start pulling funds because two theologians exercised academic freedom and published a controversial article?
I would. If these two “theologians” are dissenting from Catholic teaching, why would I support that under the guise of “academic freedom”. I wouldn’t support a school that was teaching flat earth theory (which they would have the right to do with “academic freedom”)
 
If I read it in a Catholic magazine, then it MUST be true. I know a Priest who says it’s OK. I’ll still respect you in the morning. Honest!
So now the promiscous Catholic Male can carry both a condom and a copy of this article in his wallet when he goes bar hopping.
 
If I read it in a Catholic magazine, then it MUST be true. I know a Priest who says it’s OK. I’ll still respect you in the morning. Honest!
“And we can both be ordained priests after we marry and preside at Cousin Harry’s marriage to his lover, John.”
 
So would that mean that if one has premarital sex, then one would have to get an annulment if the relationship breaks up and one of the couple wants to marry another, err I mean have “premarital” sex with another or go through a wedding, which ever comes first? Or should I not even propose the question, because the Bishop spoke out against the proposal of the scholars?

If the sacrament of marriage is begun at the time of the sex, then that throws the status que in upheaval.
 
Frommi,

I’d have more sympathy for your argument if this were a proposal in a scholarly journal of academic theologians. “US Catholic” is not. It is targeted at average interested catholic laymen which anybody knows is a body suffering from the effects of terrible catechesis in this day and age. For the authors to claim that they were merely offering an academic thesis in order to heighten academic debate is laughable.

The clear intent of publishing something like this is to undermine the clarity and authority of church teaching in the minds of thousands of laymen. IMO, the authors have tied a massive millstone around their necks and thrown it off the bridge.
 
After reading the proposal, I’d sever ties too. I don’t think it’s good for that to come from the group helping you with family ministry, and giving proposals that might never come to be, encouraging people into a situation that really might not happen, and I seriously doubt will happen.
 
Discussion is beneficial if it leads to a worthwhile conclusion. A proposal like this distracts from clear Church teaching which can confuse the average reader.

It amazes me how satisfying the flesh is the answer as opposed to modeling Christ. The secular world is so absorbed with promoting sex and skin. As Catholics, we need to put every thought under obedience to Christ. He is the way, the truth and the light. In the meantime, too many Catholics, even scholars, get distracted by the wide road that the world offers. “Hey! Look over here! We’ve got new ideas, or maybe old-new ideas, or, how about we try this or that?” Please.

Be sober, be vigilant.

God bless,
Ed
 
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