Bishops remain focused on 'responsible restrictions' on gun ownership

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what about # 5…?

5.Make a serious commitment to confront the pervasive role of addiction and mental illness in crime.

I’m not so sure that that’s “purely political” -I think that might actually fall within the realm of morals.
Yeah, I might agree with you on that one, up to a point. In crime in general, I could agree, that mental illness plays a part. Maybe even a large part… That gun control laws would keep the majority of these folks from getting weapons if they wanted them, color me skeptical
 
Mind finding a quote from the Vatican starting that we must support gun bans?
The Bishops are not advocating gun bans, but gun control and their line is supported by the Vatican:

uscatholic.org/news/2011/01/gun-control-church-firmly-quietly-opposes-firearms-civilians

*The Vatican’s justice and peace council is working to update its 1994 document, “The International Arms Trade,” to further emphasize the importance of enacting concrete controls on handguns and light weapons, he said.

The current document calls on every nation and state “to impose a strict control on the sale of handguns and small arms. Limiting the purchase of such arms would certainly not infringe on the rights of anyone.”

The more weapons there are in circulation, the more likely terrorists and criminals will get their hands on them, the document said.

The Catholic Church recognizes that “states will need to be armed for reason of legitimate defense,” as Pope Benedict XVI said in a message to a Vatican-sponsored disarmament conference in April 2008.

However, armed defense is something appropriate for nations, not for all individual citizens in a state where rule of law is effective, said Di Ruzza.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, individuals have a right and a duty to protect their own lives when in danger, and someone who “defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow.”

How that “lethal blow” could be licitly wielded is unclear, but the catechism clarifies that repelling the aggressor must be done “with moderation” in order to be “lawful” in the eyes of the church; using “more than necessary violence” would be unlawful, it says.

According to the catechism, the right to use firearms to “repel aggressors” or render them harmless is specifically sanctioned for “those who legitimately hold authority” and have been given the duty of protecting the community.

Dr Ruzza said that in “a democracy, where there is respect for institutions (of law), the citizen relinquishes his right to revenge onto the state,” which, through its law enforcement and courts system, aims to mete out a fair and just punishment.

“There is a sort of natural right to defend the common interest and the common good, and in 1791 (when the United States passed the Second Amendment), my right to have a weapon served the common good because there wasn’t an army; the democratic institutions were young and a little fragile, and I could have been useful in a time of war as a soldier,” said Di Ruzza.*

But once a nation has a functioning army, police force and court system, “do I still serve the common good with my gun or do I put it at even greater danger?” and promote a lawless kind of “street justice where if you steal my car, I shoot you,” he asked.
 
The message from our Bishops is a message to all lawmakers, and for us to see. They said their statement was in the memory of those in Sandy Hook and for the sake of our nation. What politicizes the message, for some, is the impact their suggestions will have on personal interests and how that ‘some’ perceives their own political views.

Politicians, of either party, will respond to public opinion. I read yesterday that 58% of Americans are in favor of more gun laws. That’s up from when Sandy Hook first happened. If that trend continues, we’ll see more laws at the very least, and I believe the politicians will not receive the criticisms our Bishops received.

There is very little, from Christ’s teachings, that the Bishops can speak of as applicable in today’s world without criticism, and accusations of politicizing.
 
The Bishops are not advocating gun bans, but gun control and their line is supported by the Vatican:

uscatholic.org/news/2011/01/gun-control-church-firmly-quietly-opposes-firearms-civilians

*The Vatican’s justice and peace council is working to update its 1994 document, “The International Arms Trade,” to further emphasize the importance of enacting concrete controls on handguns and light weapons, he said.

The current document calls on every nation and state “to impose a strict control on the sale of handguns and small arms. Limiting the purchase of such arms would certainly not infringe on the rights of anyone.”

The more weapons there are in circulation, the more likely terrorists and criminals will get their hands on them, the document said.

The Catholic Church recognizes that “states will need to be armed for reason of legitimate defense,” as Pope Benedict XVI said in a message to a Vatican-sponsored disarmament conference in April 2008.

However, armed defense is something appropriate for nations, not for all individual citizens in a state where rule of law is effective, said Di Ruzza.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, individuals have a right and a duty to protect their own lives when in danger, and someone who “defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow.”

How that “lethal blow” could be licitly wielded is unclear, but the catechism clarifies that repelling the aggressor must be done “with moderation” in order to be “lawful” in the eyes of the church; using “more than necessary violence” would be unlawful, it says.

According to the catechism, the right to use firearms to “repel aggressors” or render them harmless is specifically sanctioned for “those who legitimately hold authority” and have been given the duty of protecting the community.*

Dr Ruzza said that in “a democracy, where there is respect for institutions (of law), the citizen relinquishes his right to revenge onto the state,” which, through its law enforcement and courts system, aims to mete out a fair and just punishment.

“There is a sort of natural right to defend the common interest and the common good, and in 1791 (when the United States passed the Second Amendment), my right to have a weapon served the common good because there wasn’t an army; the democratic institutions were young and a little fragile, and I could have been useful in a time of war as a soldier,” said Di Ruzza.

But once a nation has a functioning army, police force and court system, “do I still serve the common good with my gun or do I put it at even greater danger?” and promote a lawless kind of “street justice where if you steal my car, I shoot you,” he asked.
If its from '94, then it needs updating for sure… Hopefully they change things in regards to ALLOWING citizens to posess more arms, like for those in Syria, who’s government is killing the people.

…when can we really learn to trust civil authorities with unlimited trust, especially when governments are not Catholic based…?
 
I’ll trust the police to protect me when they can get to the scene of a crime before the criminals can pull the trigger. That’s merely a few miliseconds, so I’m confident that I won’t need to protect myself in a few years! :rolleyes:
 
I’ll trust the police to protect me when they can get to the scene of a crime before the criminals can pull the trigger. That’s merely a few miliseconds, so I’m confident that I won’t need to protect myself in a few years! :rolleyes:
There’s a higher authority where we can place our trust. If our trust was directed to Him, it would probably witness in an effort to convert hearts.

Lifetimes are only a few years, and we’re all going to be beyond protecting ourselves in a few years.
 
If its from '94, then it needs updating for sure… Hopefully they change things in regards to ALLOWING citizens to posess more arms, like for those in Syria, who’s government is killing the people.

…when can we really learn to trust civil authorities with unlimited trust, especially when governments are not Catholic based…?
The document was from 1994, but the comments are from this year. They are clearly not moving in the direction you are suggesting.
 
There’s a higher authority where we can place our trust. If our trust was directed to Him, it would probably witness in an effort to convert hearts.

Lifetimes are only a few years, and we’re all going to be beyond protecting ourselves in a few years.
What about future generations? If psychos never stop getting their hands on guns then eventually it would make sense to outlaw all weapons.

…then should the world go haywire down the road, and atheist started killing the religious, should we just lay it all in Gods hands and hope for the best?
 
If its from '94, then it needs updating for sure… Hopefully they change things in regards to ALLOWING citizens to posess more arms, like for those in Syria, who’s government is killing the people.
Collegiality doesn’t work like that. The bishops in each country or region form a synod. This synod under and with the Vatican is authoritative. The “rules” set for the people in Syria would be different than the “rules” in the U.S.
 
What about future generations? If psychos never stop getting their hands on guns then eventually it would make sense to outlaw all weapons.

…then should the world go haywire down the road, and atheist started killing the religious, should we just lay it all in Gods hands and hope for the best?
The gun-grabbers on this forum forget it was the sword that saved Christendom from the Muslim invaders.

They should have all lain down and be martyred I guess. :rolleyes:

The sword of God may cut through the iniquity in mens hearts, but alas in this fallen world sometimes we just need weapons to penetrate them.
 
What about future generations? If psychos never stop getting their hands on guns then eventually it would make sense to outlaw all weapons.

…then should the world go haywire down the road, and atheist started killing the religious, should we just lay it all in Gods hands and hope for the best?
If, as a nation, we placed all our trust in Him, we wouldn’t have to worry about future generations. What is going on is that half the country wants to place their trust in guns to solve our nations problems.
 
The gun-grabbers on this forum forget it was the sword that saved Christendom from the Muslim invaders.

They should have all lain down and be martyred I guess. :rolleyes:

The sword of God may cut through the iniquity in mens hearts, but alas in this fallen world sometimes we just need weapons to penetrate them.
Sometimes I think people forget to look at the big picture, viewing only their own space in time. I wish I was that way, it would eliminate a lot of frustration.
 
The Bishops are not advocating gun bans, but gun control and their line is supported by the Vatican:

uscatholic.org/news/2011/01/gun-control-church-firmly-quietly-opposes-firearms-civilians
Here is where it all goes wrong in attempting to transform generalities into specifics. Here is how the document referenced above starts:* “Firearms in the hands of civilians should be strictly limited and eventually completely eliminated.”*

But you won’t find that statement in a headline or a document subheading. It’s almost hidden in a footnote in a document on crime by the U.S. bishops’ conference and it’s mentioned in passing in dozens of official Vatican texts on the global arms trade.
Let’s start with what should be blindingly obvious: Church doctrine will not be found almost hidden in a footnote from a particular country’s bishop’s conference or mentioned only in passing by statements from the Vatican. The statement about the private ownership of firearms is not Church doctrine and no Catholic has any moral obligation to accept it as such or agree with it. Statements like this are in fact reprehensible inasmuch as, rather than being Church doctrine, they are nothing more than the personal opinions of someone who has no compunction about using his faith as a tool to achieve his political ends.

Ender
 
What would Pope Julius II say to these bishops?



(He’s the elderly man in armor leading troops to battle surounded by men with weapons).
 
The gun-grabbers on this forum forget it was the sword that saved Christendom from the Muslim invaders.

They should have all lain down and be martyred I guess. :rolleyes:

The sword of God may cut through the iniquity in mens hearts, but alas in this fallen world sometimes we just need weapons to penetrate them.
Controls are not grabbing guns anymore than advocating gun rights is idolizing guns.
 
But you won’t find that statement in a headline or a document subheading. It’s almost hidden in a footnote in a document on crime by the U.S. bishops’ conference and it’s mentioned in passing in dozens of official Vatican texts on the global arms trade.
[/INDENT]Let’s start with what should be blindingly obvious: Church doctrine will not be found almost hidden in a footnote from a particular country’s bishop’s conference or mentioned only in passing by statements from the Vatican. The statement about the private ownership of firearms is not Church doctrine and no Catholic has any moral obligation to accept it as such or agree with it. Statements like this are in fact reprehensible inasmuch as, rather than being Church doctrine, they are nothing more than the personal opinions of someone who has no compunction about using his faith as a tool to achieve his political ends.
Ender
But of course, if a Bishop.speaks out against gun control, suddenly it is not political and quoted as legitimacy and justification.
 
But of course, if a Bishop.speaks out against gun control, suddenly it is not political and quoted as legitimacy and justification.
Same thing happens when Bishops discuss social programs for those in need, immigration, death penalty, etc.

With 2000 years of Church history, some have become efficient on searching out a tidbit from someone who said something that can be interpreted to support just about anything. 😦
 
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