Bishops rip HHS mandate That Forces Coverage of Birth Control, Abortion Drugs

[Rence]

It is arbitrary because it is arbitrary.

We don’t need to wait to see how this will turn out. Anyone can see where this is going.

To pretend otherwise is nothing less than an act of willful ignorance.

There is absolutely no point in trying to defend that distinction.

It will be interesting to see if Catholics continue to respect a law that treats them as outlaws.

That depends on if Catholics they feel like they are being treated like outlaws. It’s unlikely, considering that the majority of Catholics actually use these benefits that you’re so opposd to, that they will feel like outlaws. I don’t feel that Catholics are being treated like outlaws and I don’t even use these benefits.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

That depends on if Catholics they feel like they are being treated like outlaws. It’s unlikely, considering that the majority of Catholics actually use these benefits that you’re so opposd to, that they will feel like outlaws. I don’t feel that Catholics are being treated like outlaws and I don’t even use these benefits.

Time will tell. But the question is not simply whether Catholics “feel like” they are being treated as outlaws but whether they are willing to confront the evil toward which these policies are just another step.

It’s always easier to bury your hand in the sand until the evil can no longer be ignored, until it is invading your own life.

It looks to me like this has shaken up American bishops who had previously hoped to be partners in the welfare state and that is a start.

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

If a religious institution employs people of all faiths and cultures, and serves the population in general, it should be held to the same standards, rules and laws that any secular employer does. If a religious institution only employs peoples of that religion and serves only people of that religion, then it’s fair they get to push their religious weight around by limiting the goods, services and benefits of those employed and served by them. So if regulations are put in place that make certain benefits available across the board, compliance should be based on the above.

The Catholic Church has no restrictions on whom it serves to be Catholic, nor does it
always qualify those that provide the services to be Catholic so in complying with the
law, it’s one bad situation for another bad situation.
The regulation would also be one in which our Lord would not qualify for the exemption.

 

[Rence]

Time will tell. But the question is not simply whether Catholics “feel like” they are being treated as outlaws but whether they are willing to confront the evil toward which these policies are just another step.

It’s always easier to bury your hand in the sand until the evil can no longer be ignored, until it is invading your own life.

It looks to me like this has shaken up American bishops who had previously hoped to be partners in the welfare state and that is a start.

Catholics are not being treated like outlaws by being offered more benefits that they can either take or leave. Benefits won’t be taken away, they will be added.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Catholics are not being treated like outlaws by being offered more benefits that they can either take or leave. Benefits won’t be taken away, they will be added.

Catholics are being told that they are criminals if they continue to practice Catholicism.

Catholics can either continue to practice Catholicism or break the law. It is that simple.

The “benefits” that they are being offered is to fund abortions, among other things. They cannot leave this “benefit” without violating the law.

Catholics can obey the law only by aiding and abetting murder.

It is a fair question whether most Catholics understand this. But it looks like the bishops do.

 

[Ridgerunner]

If a religious institution employs people of all faiths and cultures, and serves the population in general, it should be held to the same standards, rules and laws that any secular employer does. If a religious institution only employs peoples of that religion and serves only people of that religion, then it’s fair they get to push their religious weight around by limiting the goods, services and benefits of those employed and served by them. So if regulations are put in place that make certain benefits available across the board, compliance should be based on the above.

The Obama administration made essentially that argument in front of the Supreme Court recently in the Hosana-Tabor case, and lost. Even Kagan wouldn’t buy it. Is the Catholic Church now supposed to exclude all non-Catholics from Mass; from K of C events; from Catholic schools? From mixed-faith weddings in the Catholic Church? Seems Obama wants that, as it is the logical extension of the new Obama Doctrine.

This country has always had religious institutions that serve the public. It has always had religious institutions that hire outside their own faith group. None have ever been forced by the law to do something directly against their religious tenets, until now, and certainly where no public harm can be shown by their adhering to their own beliefs. The real issue is whether this administration ought to be allowed to oppress and perhaps destroy religious and charitable institutions by giving them the choice to violate their religious tenets or disband…a vicious formulation by a vicious government. If a government does that and makes it stick, there really is no limit to which it cannot go in doing it. That’s the intent here, and it’s only the beginning. If Obama gets away with it this time, does anybody really think he won’t do it more if he’s re-elected? Remember, he also disqualified a Catholic organization from receiving federal funds for aiding victims of human trafficing, and only because it wouldn’t refer for abortions. Is there really any reason to believe Obama will not, in 2013 or after, mandate that all recipients of medicare must actually perform abortions in their facilities and practices? Same principle.

This act of his is motivated by anti-religious animus, at least as directed toward the Catholic Church. How do we know that? We know it because it is absolutely unnecessary for him to mandate it. He is presenting Catholic institutions with the choice to be complicit with what the Church regards as an inexcusable evil or disband their institution, simply because he wants to. And he wants to because the Catholic Church stands against the culture of death which he espouses and the killers who provide him support.

I do realize secularists and statists might think that whatever the state imposes on religious groups is just something religious groups have to live with. But with no boundaries to that, it’s simply a mechanism for the oppression of religion. Probably that’s just fine with secularists and the anti-religious. But it shouldn’t be. Once one accepts that the Executive Will trumps practice and conscience in all things without limitation, then there is no “freedom of religion”, indeed, there are no rights of any kind, in reality.

 

[Nimzovik]

Because someone posted the bishops should endorse the Republican candidate for POTUS. And some here will say if a Catholic does not abide by this or that, that they are not Catholic.

Yah that is right. I think you are beginning to perceive the situation. Sweet Rosy Ogrady! How can one vote for Obama (BTW Obama’s policies are anathema - did I say anathema? Hmmmm… let me say it again - anathema to the Church’s teaching**)** and claim to be an authentic Catholic?

I have no love for Republicans, However** if** the Republican is the only Pro - Life candidate and acceptable on all the requisite issues in regard to the 5 non- negotiables (note - not non -suggestibles) then I fail (as in epic fail) to see how one can vote otherwise.

Break it down for me - please. Enquiring minds want to know.

 

[Rence]

Catholics are being told that they are criminals if they continue to practice Catholicism.

Catholics can either continue to practice Catholicism or break the law. It is that simple.

The “benefits” that they are being offered is to fund abortions, among other things. They cannot leave this “benefit” without violating the law.

Catholics can obey the law only by aiding and abetting murder.

It is a fair question whether most Catholics understand this. But it looks like the bishops do.

There’s nothing to stop them from practicing Catholicism. The burden that they place on themselves in trying to control the actions of others, and the inability to do so, is what makes them so unhappy. There are places in the world where one can’t practice Catholicism. So to claim that Catholics aren’t allowed to practice Catholicism is just silly. It also downplays the severity of the situations of those living in places in which they truly are persecuted for being Catholics, and that’s unfortunate. Of course we can practice Catholicism, and we don’t have to worry about being persecuted for it. However, we are not allowed to control the actions of others or somehow make them follow Catholic rules and laws. That’s something people have to do voluntarily on their own. If people would concentrate on being living examples of Catholics and stop basing their freedom on the choices of others, they’d be a lot happier and their living example would shine.

 

[Nimzovik]

There’s nothing to stop them from practicing Catholicism. The burden that they place on themselves in trying to control the actions of others, and the inability to do so, is what makes them so unhappy. There are places in the world where one can’t practice Catholicism. So to claim that Catholics aren’t allowed to practice Catholicism is just silly. It also downplays the severity of the situations of those living in places in which they truly are persecuted for being Catholics, and that’s unfortunate. Of course we can practice Catholicism, and we don’t have to worry about being persecuted for it. However, we are not allowed to control the actions of others or somehow make them follow Catholic rules and laws. That’s something people have to do voluntarily on their own. If people would concentrate on being living examples of Catholics and stop basing their freedom on the choices of others, they’d be a lot happier and their living example would shine.

Nimzovik Responds:

Your argument is Nonsequitur. Catholics are not allowed to exercise Catholicism when prohibited - I reiterate - Prohibited from running their Catholic Hospitals in the manner they wish (In accordance with their faith). Simple really. The Gov’t is forcing the religion of Atheism on Catholics by mandating Catholics to provide abortion services. Nuff said,

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

There’s nothing to stop them from practicing Catholicism. The burden that they place on themselves in trying to control the actions of others, and the inability to do so, is what makes them so unhappy.

If by “controlling the actions of others” you mean refusing to fund abortions, that is correct.

Catholics don’t facilitate abortions.

(Note that we are not even considering here the question of whether abortions should be illegal; I might even agree with you were that the issue. We are discussing whether Catholics can be forced by law to provide abortions through health plans.)

There are places in the world where one can’t practice Catholicism. So to claim that Catholics aren’t allowed to practice Catholicism is just silly.

That makes no sense whatsoever. If there are places in the world where one can’t practice Catholicism then it makes absolute sense to claim that Catholics aren’t allowed to practice Catholicism in those places.

And now the United States has become one of those places.

It also downplays the severity of the situations of those living in places in which they truly are persecuted for being Catholics, and that’s unfortunate. Of course we can practice Catholicism, and we don’t have to worry about being persecuted for it. However, we are not allowed to control the actions of others or somehow make them follow Catholic rules and laws. That’s something people have to do voluntarily on their own. If people would concentrate on being living examples of Catholics and stop basing their freedom on the choices of others, they’d be a lot happier and their living example would shine.

Catholics are going to be fined and/or jailed for practicing Catholicism now.

Catholics have tried to get along with secularists, to live and let live, and now we see where that has led.

Well, by “we” I guess I don’t mean everyone.

 

[Nimzovik]

Methinks** I **do **indeed **hear a call to political arms -yes?

 

[Rence]

Nimzovik Responds:

Your argument is Nonsequitur. Catholics are not allowed to exercise Catholicism when prohibited - I reiterate - Prohibited from running their Catholic Hospitals in the manner they wish (In accordance with their faith). Simple really. The Gov’t is forcing the religion of Atheism on Catholics by mandating Catholics to provide abortion services. Nuff said,

No, it’s not. It’s true: Catholics are free to be Catholics and practice Catholicism. What they are not allowed to do is make others be Catholic and practice Catholicism.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Methinks** I **do **indeed **hear a call to political arms -yes?

Metaphorically, hopefully.

But that is the most obvious question: what are we to do?

Just saying “vote for the guy who passed RomneyCare instead of the guy who passed ObamaCare” doesn’t quite cut it.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

No, it’s not. It’s true: Catholics are free to be Catholics and practice Catholicism. What they are not allowed to do is make others be Catholic and practice Catholicism.

Refusing to provide abortion through a health care plan is not forcing others to practice Catholicism.

It is refusing to aid and abet murder.

 

[Nimzovik]

No, it’s not. It’s true: Catholics are free to be Catholics and practice Catholicism. What they are not allowed to do is make others be Catholic and practice Catholicism.

Nimzovik Responds:

Yes … that is what you tell me… You are in error. Period. To keep repeating the same assertion over and over again :banghead: without butressing facts is really rather suspect.

 

[Rence]

If by “controlling the actions of others” you mean refusing to fund abortions, that is correct.

Catholics don’t facilitate abortions.

(Note that we are not even considering here the question of whether abortions should be illegal; I might even agree with you were that the issue. We are discussing whether Catholics can be forced by law to provide abortions through health plans.)

That makes no sense whatsoever. If there are places in the world where one can’t practice Catholicism then it makes absolute sense to claim that Catholics aren’t allowed to practice Catholicism in those places.

And now the United States has become one of those places.

Catholics are going to be fined and/or jailed for practicing Catholicism now.

Catholics have tried to get along with secularists, to live and let live, and now we see where that has led.

Well, by “we” I guess I don’t mean everyone.

The cost of the new added benefits is already being paid for in deductibles, copays, premiums and provider discounts.

As a Catholic, I don’t feel Catholics are prevented by law from practicing Catholicism. We just can’t controls others to be Catholic. The ability to control another person’s actions is not what freedom is. The US is one of the best places to live and I’m glad I’m here. I wouldn’t want to be anywhere else. I’m sorry you think that you don’t have it good enough here.

 

[Rence]

Nimzovik Responds:

Yes … that is what you tell me… You are in error. Period. To keep repeating the same assertion over and over again is really rather suspect.

Suspect of what? the fact that I disagree with you? That should be obvious, not suspect Look, I don’t feel constricted, discriminated against, or opressed as a Catholic living in America. I’m sorry you feel that way, but I don’t see it as the way it really is in reality. The reality is, we certainly are free to be Catholic and follow Catholicism.

 

[Nimzovik]

The cost of the new added benefits is already being paid for in deductibles, copays, premiums and provider discounts.

As a Catholic, I don’t feel Catholics are prevented by law from practicing Catholicism. We just can’t controls others to be Catholic. The ability to control another person’s actions is not what freedom is. The US is one of the best places to live and I’m glad I’m here. I wouldn’t want to be anywhere else. I’m sorry you think that you don’t have it good enough here.

Bold Lettering Mine

Nimzovik Responds.

cough cough Ahem? Controlling others is not what the Catholics are doing in this our discussed thread. Aucontraire!! It is the Gov’t controlling Catholics!
This is really rather evident to those that do not have a contrary agenda.

 

[jay29]

The cost of the new added benefits is already being paid for in deductibles, copays, premiums and provider discounts.

As a Catholic, I don’t feel Catholics are prevented by law from practicing Catholicism. We just can’t controls others to be Catholic. The ability to control another person’s actions is not what freedom is. The US is one of the best places to live and I’m glad I’m here. I wouldn’t want to be anywhere else. I’m sorry you think that you don’t have it good enough here.

Forcing Catholic Institutions to pay for artificial BC and other evils is against the institution’s rights and freedoms.

 

[Nimzovik]

Suspect of what? the fact that I disagree with you? That should be obvious, not suspect Look, I don’t feel constricted, discriminated against, or opressed as a Catholic living in America. I’m sorry you feel that way, but I don’t see it as the way it really is in reality. The reality is, we certainly are free to be Catholic and follow Catholicism.

Nimzovik Reponds.

Thats… funny. I as a Catholic always feel discriminated against when my freedoms are arbitrarily eliminated.