Bishops with flash cars

[dorothy_smith]

One quick question–when the bishop dies, does that palatial mansion, or that nice car, go to his heirs or family, or do they ‘stay’ right there for the next bishop?

Dear Tantum ergo

Best make my argument objectively (subjective points of view lack any validation).

Argument for: I think that the bishop deserves a top of the range model of car because it is in keeping with his office (some may think) and when he retires he doesn’t keep the car but leaves it for the new bishop.

Argument against: I don’t think that the bishop deserves a top of the range model of car because a basic model is just as reliable and serves the same purpose of getting him from A to B. Also, in retirement, many emeritus bishops like to keep their cars (I don’t object to that).

Conclusion: A bishop deserves to have a new basic model car because he needs it in order to able to do his job/vocation. And driving a basic model shows his lack of retentiveness to objects secular. Also, if emeritus bishops choose to keep their cars in retirement then it is not so expensive for the new bishop to get a replacement.

I guess some people just can’t seem to grasp the difference.

I’m trying to grasp the difference

 

[1ke]

Dear Tantum ergo
A bishop deserves to have a new basic model car because he needs it in order to able to do his job/vocation. And driving a basic model shows his lack of retentiveness to objects secular. Also, if emeritus bishops choose to keep their cars in retirement then it is not so expensive for the new bishop to get a replacement.

Why do you phrase it in terms of what a bishop “deserves”? That is an interesting way to phrase it. Who determines what is “deserved”? Shouldn’t that be the bishop himself?

The Bishop takes no vow of poverty, therefore if he chooses to drive a luxury car-- and can pay for it-- then why shouldn’t he drive it?

If a luxury car is loaned/given to him by others, why shouldn’t he drive it?

I don’t get why he must “deserve” to drive such a car, and why people actually believe he “doesn’t deserve” to if they are opposed to him having such a car.

 

[gvogt4]

Dear Dorothy,

In an effort to better understand why this matter is troubling you so much, I took the liberty of reading your public profile. I noticed that you state "I am a cradle Catholic with a disposition towards deism. " Now, I have to abmit that I has never heard of this, so I went to the “World Union od Deists” website. Below is a snipet of what I read there.

from web site deism.com/deism_vs.htm

DEISM VS. REVEALED RELIGION

Revelation, or revealed religion, is defined in Webster’s New World Dictionary as: “God’s disclosure to man of Himself.” This should read, “God’s alleged disclosure to man of himself.” For unless God reveals to each of us individually that a particular religion is truly His disclosure to us of Himself, then, by believing that religion, we are not taking His word for it, but we are instead putting our belief in the person or institution telling us it is so. This is what we are doing when we believe in any revealed religion, and that’s all Christianity is. It’s a revealed religion like many others such as Islam and Judaism.

From what I read, it looks like this line of thinking is just the next step to atheism. Hypothetically (and not subjective), yesterday you believe in God and His revelation handed down by the Church, today you believe in God, but only what you believe has personally been revealed to you, and tomorrow, when you don’t feel God is talking directly to you, you figure there is no God.
I know you probably won’t believe me, but I’m really not intending to be hurtful in what I’m saying, I’m just trying to understand if this is what you believe or not. I will pray for you if it is, and I mean that. This is a very dangerous line of thinking.

All that said, I must ask, are you concerned about the bishop’s car because you are looking for another excuse to leave the Church, or are you trying to negatively influence others to your way of thinking, or are you sincerely trying to put your heart at rest about this issue?

 

[vern_humphrey]

I recommend watching “The Crossing” – a made-for-TV movie about Washington crossing the Delaware.

There is a scene where General Knox complains to Washington that Colonel Glover (commanding the Marblehead Regiment) had told him (Knox) that it was a disgrace to be fat (and Knox was fat) in an army where the men were starving.

 

[dorothy_smith]

Dear Dorothy,

In an effort to better understand why this matter is troubling you so much…

It is not troubling me. This is a discussion board is it not? I personally believe that it is hypocritical for bishops to live in luxury.

I took the liberty of reading your public profile. I noticed that you state "I am a cradle Catholic with a disposition towards deism. " Now, I have to abmit that I has never heard of this…

I am a cradle Catholic who believes in God to the absolute and believes in mostly all that the Catholic Church teaches. Does that make me any lesser a Catholic than anyone else?

I know you probably won’t believe me, but I’m really not intending to be hurtful in what I’m saying,

I do believe you. You come across as being a nice person. I wish more Catholics were as Christian as you.

I’m just trying to understand if this is what you believe or not. I will pray for you if it is, and I mean that. This is a very dangerous line of thinking.

I am grateful for your prayers. I think that I need them.

All that said, I must ask, are you concerned about the bishop’s car because you are looking for another excuse to leave the Church, or are you trying to negatively influence others to your way of thinking, or are you sincerely trying to put your heart at rest about this issue?

Once again, this is a forum for discussing everything Catholic and this is the Moral Theology forum. So, I am putting forward my opinion about bishops living lifestyles above the norm. I personally believe that Jesus did not endorse such lifestyles to His followers. Do you?

In addition, I am not trying to influence anyone. I am just saying what I believe that Jesus teaches us in the Gospels.

God bless. And I would really be grateful for your prayers (I am having some problems).

 

[gvogt4]

It is not troubling me. This is a discussion board is it not? I personally believe that it is hypocritical for bishops to live in luxury.

It is (discussion board), and it just appeared to me that this issue was “troubling” you. I’m glad that it is not. Additionally, without condemning nor condoning the specific instance or bishop, the Church is infallable, but individuals in the Church are not. Just remember the difference between the Message and the messenger.

I am a cradle Catholic who believes in God to the absolute and believes in mostly all that the Catholic Church teaches. Does that make me any lesser a Catholic than anyone else?

Ok, I definitely want you to know I am not making a personal judgment call here about your Catholicity -hey is that a word?- anyway, there are some things that as Catholics we must believe in order to truly be Catholic. (Obviously, an opinion about the bishop does not make one any more or less of a Catholic, however, not believing in…say…The Trinity would.) As I said before, I had never heard of the deism thing before and wanted to clarify.

I do believe you. You come across as being a nice person. I wish more Catholics were as Christian as you. I am grateful for your prayers. I think that I need them.

Well, I’m also glad you didn’t think I was just trying to give you a hard time. As far as “I wish more Catholics were as Christian as you.” … He lifted me out of the slimy pit, out of the mud and mire; he set my feet on a rock and gave me a firm place to stand. (Psalm 40:2) I’m just another person that knows that conversion is a life-long process, not an experience. God’s mercy and grace are what sustains us. As far as needing prayers, we all do, and that is not an opinion.

Once again, this is a forum for discussing everything Catholic and this is the Moral Theology forum. So, I am putting forward my opinion about bishops living lifestyles above the norm. I personally believe that Jesus did not endorse such lifestyles to His followers. Do you?

Now if I commented on that, I would think I would either be or at least be perceived to be making a judgment of this bishop and/or this issue. I would rather not. Please see next comments for further explanation.

In addition, I am not trying to influence anyone. I am just saying what I believe that Jesus teaches us in the Gospels.

Ok, and I can understand that. One of the wonderful things that ourCatholic Church does is to teach us the fullness of the Gospel message (not to be confused with Full Gospel Preachers ). Jesus gave us lots of messages within the message. Part of that is looking so deeply at ourselves that it becomes more difficult to see the errors in others. Now this is a hard task, and to help with the times we do see other’s errors, we are to pray for them always, and yes, even sometimes admonish them, but always in the light of Christ. It may very well be that the situation you described is wrong - I really don’t know. I do know that the bishop, like you and I, will have to account to God for all. If he is not leading others into sin by his actions, I think it’s doesn’t work for your spiritual benefit to dwell on it much.

God bless. And I would really be grateful for your prayers (I am having some problems).

Thank you, and may God bless you also. And you can count on my prayers. Finally, see prayer below (which is a favorite of mine and not really tied to this subject.

Thomas Merton’s Prayer

MY LORD GOD, I have no idea where I am going. I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end.
Nor do I really know myself, and the fact that I think that I am following your will does not mean that I am actually doing so.
But I believe that the desire to please you does in fact please you. And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing. I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that if I do this you will lead me by the right road though I may know nothing about it. Therefore will I trust you always though I may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death. I will not fear, for you are ever with me, and you will never leave me to face my perils alone.

 

[Unfinished]

The ‘mansion’, the ‘car’ are not for ‘Bob Smith who happens to be bishop’ but for "the bishop, who happens to be Robert Smith’. . . a major difference. The ‘things’ are for the office, held by a given person–not for a given person who happens to hold the office.

Cha ching. That is the key.

A lot of priests make the rectory a nice place to live on the parish dollar. But then they leave it for the next priest.

A car is about the only thing a priest/bishop has to pay for out of pocket if they are not lucky enough to be given one. I say let them drive whatever they want, it is their stipend that they are spending.

Now, there is a limit. If they are rolling around in corvettes or Ford GTs that may be excessive. But if they want a luxury BMW, I say go for it. For what they have given up in service to the Church and people, they should be able to enjoy a nice car. After all, they are in their cars a LOT.

 

[dorothy_smith]

Cha ching. That is the key.

A lot of priests make the rectory a nice place to live on the parish dollar. But then they leave it for the next priest.

A car is about the only thing a priest/bishop has to pay for out of pocket if they are not lucky enough to be given one. I say let them drive whatever they want, it is their stipend that they are spending.

Now, there is a limit. If they are rolling around in corvettes or Ford GTs that may be excessive. But if they want a luxury BMW, I say go for it. For what they have given up in service to the Church and people, they should be able to enjoy a nice car. After all, they are in their cars a LOT.

Yes, but the car is not the only thing. What about their palatial abode, holidays abroad, fancy dinners with the hoity-toity, designer clothes (they don’t wear off the peg) and a purse that is always full. (You could hardly speak of any of these things in relation to Jesus. Could you?)

Am I envious? Not at all. I would respect our bishops even more so if they did the same as the Bishop in Scotland did a few years ago (I wish I could remember his name) who moved out of his mansion and renounced all his wordly goods to live a life more in keeping with Jesus in the Gospels.

 

[dorothy_smith]

Cha ching. That is the key.

A car is about the only thing a priest/bishop has to pay for out of pocket if they are not lucky enough to be given one. I say let them drive whatever they want, it is their stipend that they are spending.

But if they want a luxury BMW, I say go for it.

PS - How much stipend are they paid that can afford them to buy a luxury BMW! Goodness me! It gets worse!

 

[dorothy_smith]

Thomas Merton’s Prayer

MY LORD GOD, I have no idea where I am going. I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end.
Nor do I really know myself, and the fact that I think that I am following your will does not mean that I am actually doing so.
But I believe that the desire to please you does in fact please you. And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing. I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that if I do this you will lead me by the right road though I may know nothing about it. Therefore will I trust you always though I may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death. I will not fear, for you are ever with me, and you will never leave me to face my perils alone.

I like that a lot. I’m going to save it on my PC.

 

[amdgjmj]

When I first saw this thread…I thought it said “Bishops with Flash Cards…”

Me too I thought, gosh, give the guy a break, maybe those are his homily notes!

But back to the topic at hand. You don’t know how he’s getting the fancy car or dinners, etc. People might be treating him to fancy dinners and maybe a wealthy parishoner gifted the car to him. It’s wrong to make these kinds of judgements without knowing all the facts of the matter. But if these things irk you, please increase your prayers for the Bishop.

 

[Unfinished]

PS - How much stipend are they paid that can afford them to buy a luxury BMW! Goodness me! It gets worse!

Priests around here make about 15k a year.

Hardly a huge stipend. However, when you think about it, it is enough for a great car.

All their food, housing, medical, etc. is payed for by the church. Many priests spend a lot of money for charities and to help out the parish when it is lacking. Still, after that, they probably have 10k a year to put on a car. A 30k BMW can be payed off in three years at that rate.

 

[Unfinished]

Yes, but the car is not the only thing. What about their palatial abode, holidays abroad, fancy dinners with the hoity-toity, designer clothes (they don’t wear off the peg) and a purse that is always full. (You could hardly speak of any of these things in relation to Jesus. Could you?)

Am I envious? Not at all. I would respect our bishops even more so if they did the same as the Bishop in Scotland did a few years ago (I wish I could remember his name) who moved out of his mansion and renounced all his wordly goods to live a life more in keeping with Jesus in the Gospels.

As mentioned before, probably about 75% of these things are gifts.

Priests probably never have to pay for a dinner out. In larger parishes, and I can only imagine as a Bishop, they have enough dinner invitations for every single day of the year. They have to turn down most of them because they have so many they can’t possibly attend them all.

Designer clothes? Never seen a Bishop in street clothes, but I do know that our parish gave our Bishop a very expensive set of vestments. He would never buy such himself, but he wouldn’t turn it down.

I see no problem with a nice house as it will be passed to the next priest/bishop.

I’m not avocating excess, but I don’t think Bishops should be required to drive around in a base model honda civic. If they chose to do so then I commend them.

 

[childofmary1143]

The Bishop takes no vow of poverty, therefore if he chooses to drive a luxury car-- and can pay for it-- then why shouldn’t he drive it?

Bishops don’t take a vow of Poverty?? Priests do. At least Religious Priests do. Are you sure about this?

 

[gvogt4]

diocesan (sp?) priests do not take a vow of poverty

At least some religious (those that belong to a particular Order) do take a vow of poverty

 

[gvogt4]

When I lived in New Orleans, I did work for my parish in the area of vocations. This is info I had saved from the Archdiocese of New Orleans Vocations website (from the faq)

What is the difference between a religious order priest and a diocesan priest?
A religious order priest belongs to a religious community, such as the Franciscans, Dominicans, etc., who strive to live out the charism of their founder and often have a particular type of ministry, e.g., education, health care. They usually live in community and they take the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. Diocesan priests, also called secular priests, are ordained for a local church, a geographical area, and generally serve in parishes, although they also assist in schools, hospitals, prisons, etc., depending upon the local needs. Although they do not take the three vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, diocesan priests do promise: to lead a celibate life; to respect and obey their diocesan bishop; and to live a simple lifestyle.

 

[gvogt4]

Just checked, and the faq is slightly different, but the info is the same. Here’s the same question as it is now and the link.

What is a diocesan priest?

A diocesan priest is a priest ordained to serve a diocese or faith community like the Archdiocese of New Orleans. He usually lives and serves in a parish. At ordination, he makes promises of celibacy and obedience. He does not take a vow of poverty but is paid a salary from which he must pay for his car, gas, clothes and personal needs.

archdiocese-no.org/vocationsofficeno/process.html

 

[1ke]

Bishops don’t take a vow of Poverty?? Priests do. At least Religious Priests do. Are you sure about this?

Yes, I am sure.

Diocesan priests and bishops do not take a vow of poverty.

Priests in an Order take vows specific to that order, which may include a vow of poverty.

However, the topic here is not about Order priests (or Bishops). The OP is talking about her diocesan Bishop.

 

[manualman]

Well here’s an interesting perspective: I drive around a shiny brand new Cadillac every day. I can’t afford one and probably wouldn’t have bought one if I could, but it is a company car and the boss man thinks an entry level Cadillac says the right thing about our company when I show up someplace.

If a bishop lives in a diocese that includes a number of wealthy folks and one of those wealthy folks decides to honor the Church and its bishop by giving a gift that places the bishop in a luxury car for his transportation, why is that so bad?

I actually have the opposite problem. My parish church building is only a few years old and is located in a wealthy Chicago suburb. It is OK as modern churches go, but it is painfully obvious that the cheapest materials available were used: Concrete and glue-lam wood. Floor is bare concrete (though stamped and stained. Walls are a mixture of exposed agg concrete and industrial size brick. Ceiling is glue-lam. Most of the people that live in this parish would never for ONE SECOND consider living in a home with bare concrete floors and walls, but their giving level suggests that they think the God of heaven and earth doesn’t need a place of worship as nice as their own homes. We average about $10 a week per registered family. Sheesh.

That’s the REAL scandal, not a bishop accepting a generous gift from a wealthy patron.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If people get upset over a bishop with a fancy car who ‘eats out’ at an expensive restaurant and has a ‘fancy’ church, I wonder what they think of the Pope? There he is in that “fancy” Vatican, the media tells us he wears “prada” shoes, (and I loved the ‘red cap’ in winter), everytime there is a Mass like Christmas or Easter, or there is a visiting dignitary, the Pope wears ‘flashy’ vestments or hosts a ‘shindig’ of some type.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. This is one of the things that anti-Catholics love to bring up and focus on–we “deify” the Pope, etc.

Oh wait–most of us Catholics (even the ones who criticize the bishops) seem to grasp that the Pope is a representative of Christ and in his capacity as Pope will (according to the occasion) dress as ‘ornately’ as the High Priest of the Jews did–because the honor is in itself directly an honor to God.

But we seem to forget (in a spate of modern ‘anticlericalism’) that bishops are likewise in a position of authority and also represent Christ (as do our priests).

In our egalitarian society, some seem to think that laity are ‘equal’ to a priest (or a bishop) and thus, if even one ‘lay person’ is dressed, or housed, in an ‘inferior manner’, the bishop or priest should not be housed in a ‘superior manner’ because this is ‘unChristian’. Actually they are not advocating Christianity but communism.

I meant to say early, Dorothy, that I’m rather surprised at your ‘surprise’. For gosh sakes, I’ve been to London. It has been Christian for over 1000 years. Those great looking mansions (they are lovely too) cost a fortune in upkeep. If your bishop left his, I doubt that there would be many takers for one, and the price they’d offer wouldn’t be all that high. Now here in the U.S., for example, church property isn’t taxed. If one of our rectories were put on the block, the purchase price would take into account that a lay person would become responsible for taxes, so the price would go down. Also we have zoning laws, we have ‘national register of historic places’ that would require that the place have ‘upkeep’ etc. That ‘fancy mansion’ might have antiquated taps (not so important back in the day of hot and cold running servants, but a PITA today), it might need tremendous renovations to get up to code, be drafty, moldy, etc. IOW, it may look “great” but be uncomfortable as the dickens to live in and maintain. Things to ponder. . .