Black and LDS

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wademann said:
Maybe because they checked it out for themselves and discovered that even though there are people in the church with problems, and even with half truths, from hate spewing bigots, like yourself, they couldn’t deny the spirit, and against a whole lot of reasons to ignore what they felt, they made the couragous decision to join the so-called all-white church.
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Wow, everyone who finds problems with LDS history, doctrine or scripture is a “hate-spewing bigot”. Can you say “persecution complex”?

Sure…I knew that you could. :rolleyes:
 
PaulDupre said:
Wow, everyone who finds problems with LDS history, doctrine or scripture is a “hate-spewing bigot”. Can you say “persecution complex”?

Sure…I knew that you could. :rolleyes:
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It’s like saying all little boys are self-hating cause they continue to go to the catholic church.
 
PaulDupre said:
Talk about hate-spewing bigot…
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Not my belief, but making a point. I can’t believe you guys throw this stuff out when it is so easy to turn it around. You guys act like everybody that is Mormon are self-hating, stupid suckers, as if there is absolutley no valid arguments whatsoever, as to the truth of mormonism. Many of you are x-mormons which means according to you, you are recovering self-hating, stupid suckers. I respect the fact that you chose another path, more power to you, but when I see these critics throw out these things that can be directed right back, it is just silly. Then when I get extreme to prove a point, you all actually want to continue arguing your side. Blows my mind!!!
 
wademann said:
Not my belief, but making a point. I can’t believe you guys throw this stuff out when it is so easy to turn it around. You guys act like everybody that is Mormon are self-hating, stupid suckers, as if there is absolutley no valid arguments whatsoever, as to the truth of mormonism. Many of you are x-mormons which means according to you, you are recovering self-hating, stupid suckers. I respect the fact that you chose another path, more power to you, but when I see these critics throw out these things that can be directed right back, it is just silly. Then when I get extreme to prove a point, you all actually want to continue arguing your side. Blows my mind!!!
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Not to mention many of you have LDS family members. Are they all brainwashed racists? I would guess they would be surprised to learn of your opinion of them. I can’t believe not one person has defended their family members here.
 
wademann said:
Maybe because they checked it out for themselves and discovered that even though there are people in the church with problems, and even with half truths,
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So you admit that the LDS church’s “prophets” have taught things that are not Truth? You’re saying it’s OK to pick and choose what you want to believe from the LDS church’s teachings?
 
ibkc said:
You’re saying it’s OK to pick and choose what you want to believe from the LDS church’s teachings?
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It is necessary, given the fact that there are so many contradictions. I think this argument has gotten heated enough.

Like I said, there are two LDS churches, one believes the BOM establishes a white supremacist religion, and follows it. The other believes in the BOM as an allegory on the consequences of racism. If those guys don’t want to leave it, they have a choice on which one they believe in, because someday, there will be a major splintering, if it is not happening now.

Maybe Catholics need to take a look at the Knights of Columbus. I’m sure (St.) Bartolome de las Casas is praying for you right now. :highprayer: :knight1:
 
Jerusha said:
It is necessary, given the fact that there are so many contradictions.
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No doubt. 🙂 But I am still very interested in what wademann has to say on this subject, since he (she?) is the Mormon who strongly suggested it in the post I was replying to.

As for “heated” - nah, I don’t see it. Not on my part, anyway. It’s a fairly typical LDS thread as far as I am concerned.
 
A lot of what BY is supposed to have said can not be verified
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Actually, the most shocking of BY’s racist statements are found in the Journal of Discourses, and are easily verifiable from that source. Mormons like to portray the Journal as unreliable given the fact that a majority of BY’s most bizarre teachings are found therein. But the fact of the matter is that the JoD was the sole record of conference addresses available to the membership at the time, much like the semi-annual (November and May) Ensign issues published today that document sermons given by church leaders in General Conference. The JoD is the 19th century equivalent of the General Conference Ensign issues. It’s clear that BY saw value in the content of the JoD and recommended their publication, as is evident in the First Presidency statement attached to the JoD in it’s preface:
Dear Brethren—It is well known to many of you, that Elder George D. Watt, by our counsel, spent much time in the midst of poverty and hardships to acquire the art of reporting in Phonography, which he has faithfully and fully accomplished; and he has been reporting the public Sermons, Discourses, Lectures, &c., delivered by the Presidency, the Twelve, and others in this city, for nearly two years, almost without fee or reward. Elder Watt now proposes to publish a Journal of these Reports, in England, for the benefit of the Saints at large, and to obtain means to enable him to sustain his highly useful position of Reporter. You will perceive at once that this will be a work of mutual benefit, and we cheerfully and warmly request your co-operation in the purchase and sale of the above-named Journal, and wish all the profits arising therefrom to be under the control of Elder Watt.
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BRIGHAM YOUNG, HEBER C. KIMBALL WILLARD RICHARDS, First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
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It’s very disingenuous to say that BY’s racist statements are unverifiable. They’re very verifiable and well-documented. In fact, they’re just as documented as every other of BY’s recorded sermons and teachings found in other manuscript sources in the Church’s archives (e.g. BY’s journals, Manuscript History of Brigham Young). Yet, Mormons have no trouble believing the validity of BY’s teachings contained in the official, correlated lesson manuals used in every Gospel Doctrine class. It’s only when presented with bizarre teachings found in the JoD that Mormons seek to portray that source as unreliable. But the funny thing is, a substantial portion of BY’s teachings found in those Gospel Doctrine lesson manuals come from the JoD! Can you see the irony? The same people who cry “the JoD is unreliable” when they hear about BY’s racist teachings found therein go to church every Sunday, experience a burning in their bosoms, and nod their heads in assent when they read BY’s teachings from the exact same source found in their correlated lesson manuals.

Regarding the priesthood ban and people of african descent in the church, the real issue is the fact that that church still officially teaches that the ban was God’s idea - for whatever reason; the official position is “we just don’t know why God implemented the ban.” Mormons have offered many explanations for the ban to justify it in their minds (e.g., due to the curse of Cain/Ham, due to the racism of early Mormons, blacks weren’t “ready” due to slavery and racism in U.S. society, or any other rationale Mormons use to justify the ban, blacks weren’t valiant in the pre-existence), but the fact is that it was and is a racist policy that God had nothing to do with. God is no respecter of persons and the ban was established by racist church leaders and attributed to God and attributed to God in God’s name.

NewSeeker
 
wademann said:
Not to mention many of you have LDS family members. Are they all brainwashed racists? I would guess they would be surprised to learn of your opinion of them. I can’t believe not one person has defended their family members here.
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yes my parents are brain washed racists. i don’t like it but it’s true. not every mormon is self loathing. i applied that only to one subgroup of black mormons. many white mormons i know are smug, arrogant and self-righteous types looking forward to being Gods.
 
many white mormons i know are smug, arrogant and self-righteous types looking forward to being Gods.
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You should hear my mormon bishop dad describe his hopes and dreams for eternity. He intones just like a general authority in conference when he states how awesome it is that one day he’ll be tutored by the Lord himself in how to create worlds.

NS
 
wademann said:
Not to mention many of you have LDS family members. Are they all brainwashed racists? I would guess they would be surprised to learn of your opinion of them. I can’t believe not one person has defended their family members here.
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Yeah, may family are racists. I could list the epithets I grew up, throwing around like “good day”, but it would not be in good taste. And I was taught by your church all the disgusting, horrible things, that you are offended by. Yeah, I am offended by them too.

I don’t believe my family are brainwashed. I do believe they raised me as they saw right, and I don’t hold that against them in any way.

I am more happy than you can imagine though, that I made it out of the fog of Mormonism and finally found God’s Truth. And I pray that my family can do the same.
 
majick275 said:
yes my parents are brain washed racists. i don’t like it but it’s true. not every mormon is self loathing. i applied that only to one subgroup of black mormons. many white mormons i know are smug, arrogant and self-righteous types looking forward to being Gods.
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and many priests are pedafiles. See how easy that is? Think of me as a mirror.
 
NewSeeker said:
You should hear my mormon bishop dad describe his hopes and dreams for eternity. He intones just like a general authority in conference when he states how awesome it is that one day he’ll be tutored by the Lord himself in how to create worlds.

NS
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That’s sad that your parents are like that, that explains alot about where you are coming from. What part of the country did you grow up in?
 
NewSeeker said:
You should hear my mormon bishop dad describe his hopes and dreams for eternity. He intones just like a general authority in conference when he states how awesome it is that one day he’ll be tutored by the Lord himself in how to create worlds.

NS
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This explains your distorted view of all Mormons.
 
ibkc said:
So you admit that the LDS church’s “prophets” have taught things that are not Truth? You’re saying it’s OK to pick and choose what you want to believe from the LDS church’s teachings?
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No, the half truths part was directed at you. I believe that some of their speculations were wrong, and that provides plenty of ammo for people like you, but it is there for all to see. People can choose for themselves.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Yeah, may family are racists. I could list the epithets I grew up, throwing around like “good day”, but it would not be in good taste. And I was taught by your church all the disgusting, horrible things, that you are offended by. Yeah, I am offended by them too.

I don’t believe my family are brainwashed. I do believe they raised me as they saw right, and I don’t hold that against them in any way.

I am more happy than you can imagine though, that I made it out of the fog of Mormonism and finally found God’s Truth. And I pray that my family can do the same.
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Where did you grow up?
 
Wademann,

Please answer my questions. I would like to understand your position better. Anyone on here will tell you that I am not interested in attacking or making fun in any way.

Do you deny that BY and those that followed him said and taught was is attributed to them?

Do you deny that the LDS was the last of the large denominations to allow minority males to be ministers?

Do you deny that Mormon doctrine still says that dark-skinned people bear the curse of Cain?

Now I am not saying that the LDS is racest today. On the contrary, they have made great strides in reaching out to minorities. However, the attitude that existed as late as 30 years ago is not gone completely, and neither are the actual teachings.
 
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