Black and LDS

[excaliber]

I am black, and I visited the mormon church last week.

They were not racist…they were EXTREMELY kind.

The Roman Catholic churches near me are also mostly white, they were not racist twords me eather.

I question weather Mormons hold to the teaching that skin color is a result of a punishment ?

I would like to see an oficial mormon teaching on this matter.

 

[Stephen168]

From your link:

Unlike the southern states, Utahns had never legally segregated their schools, colleges, or universities. Most children attended neighborhood elementary and junior high schools. Schools were open to all but were partially segregated as much by economic status as by race through residential living patterns. Before 1954, when Ogden opened Ben Lomond High on the secondary level, no Utah city except Salt Lake had more than one high school. Thus, patterns of residential living had not segregated most high schools. Moreover, the predominantly Euro-American students at Ogden High elected African Americans Shirley and Carl Kinsey to student-body offices in the early 1950s. During the 1970’s, most cities with racial and economic minorities began to try to eliminate informal economic and racial segregation by balancing the demographic makeup of student bodies.

I think that this says a lot about ordinary mormons and the attitude of the lds church at that time.

Having grown up in small towns with one school; this doesn’t say anything about mormon attitudes about race.

 

[RebeccaJ]

From your link:

Unlike the southern states, Utahns had never legally segregated their schools, colleges, or universities. Most children attended neighborhood elementary and junior high schools. Schools were open to all but were partially segregated as much by economic status as by race through residential living patterns. Before 1954, when Ogden opened Ben Lomond High on the secondary level, no Utah city except Salt Lake had more than one high school. Thus, patterns of residential living had not segregated most high schools. Moreover, the predominantly Euro-American students at Ogden High elected African Americans Shirley and Carl Kinsey to student-body offices in the early 1950s. During the 1970’s, most cities with racial and economic minorities began to try to eliminate informal economic and racial segregation by balancing the demographic makeup of student bodies.

I think that this says a lot about ordinary mormons and the attitude of the lds church at that time.

Oh that is really idyllic isn’t it. I grew up in Utah.

I didn’t have a single black person in my school until I was 15 years old. Why? Black people were expected to live in black neighborhoods. The schools weren’t segregated, the neighborhoods were! Ogden being one those areas where it was ok to be black and live there. And there just were, and still are not, that many black people in Utah, period.

My mother worked as an usher at a theater when she was a teenager. She ushered black people to the mezzanine seats, and white people to the lower level. She said the people in the mezzanine would sneak down to the lower level once the lights were out.

There was a restaurant here in the 50’s, the store front was a cartoonish black face and the door was in the mouth of the face. I tried to find a photo of it…it was beyond racist.

The Hotel Utah did not allow black performers to stay there, and they had to use the back entrance to get to their performing venues. This hotel was owned by the LDS Church.

Please read this history.

 

[ibkc]

I question weather Mormons hold to the teaching that skin color is a result of a punishment ?

I would like to see an oficial mormon teaching on this matter.

Bruce McConkie, in his book Mormon Doctrine:

“In the pre-existent eternity various degrees of valiance and devotion to the truth were exhibited by different groups of our Father’s spirit offspring, some were more valiant than others. Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin… Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The present status of the negro rests purely and simply on the foundation of pre-existence. The negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom, but this inequality is not of man’s origin. It is the Lord’s doing, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the lack of spiritual valiance of those concerned in their first estate.”

Here are quotes from the Book of Mormon on the matter:

1 Nephi 11:8 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.
1 Nephi 11:13 And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.
1 Nephi 12:23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations. (Joe Smith calls dark skinned people ugly, filthy, lazy, and perverts.)
1 Nephi 13:15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.
2 Nephi 5:21 For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
2 Nephi 30:6 And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure white (1830 edition) and a delightsome people.
Jacob 3:8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.
Alma 3:6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.
3 Nephi 2:15** And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites.**
Mormon 5:15 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.

 

[PaulDupre]

I question weather Mormons hold to the teaching that skin color is a result of a punishment ?

I would like to see an oficial mormon teaching on this matter.

Here’s another Mormon apostle teaching the same thing, but earlier in Mormon history:

At the time the devil was cast out of heaven, there were some spirits that did not know who had authority, whether God or the devil. They consequently did not take a very active part on either side, but rather thought the devil had been abused, . . . These spirits were not considered bad enough to be cast down to hell, and never have bodies; neither were they considered worthy of an honourable body on this earth: . . . But those spirits in heaven that rather lent an influence to the devil, thinking he had a little the best right to govern, but did not take a very active part any way were required to come into the world and take bodies in the accursed lineage of Canaan; and hence the Negro or African race.

• (Speech of Apostle Orson Hyde, delivered before the High Priests’ Quorum, in Nauvoo, April 27, 1845, printed by John Taylor, p. 30).

Note: John Taylor was the 3rd President (Prophet) of the LDS Church

 

[excaliber]

I have a serious problem then!!
Because you see I have this thing for black women.
So basicly mormons are saying God made a mistake…He ment to curse cains offspring, but accidentally blessed mankind with BEAUTIFUL black women.

I saw a women from africa, her skin was JET BLACK, and she had this accent when she spoke…I get goose bumps thinking about it.
I about fainted!!!

Just today I almost recked my car driving by this hottie…ANYWAY!!
Its impossible for anything soooo good to be ment as a curse.

And white people aren’t actualy “White”. they are light complected but not “white”.

How did the mormon church get something sooooo wrong, if they get direct revelation???

 

[ralphinal]

I have a serious problem then!!
Because you see I have this thing for black women.
So basicly mormons are saying God made a mistake…He ment to curse cains offspring, but accidentally blessed mankind with BEAUTIFUL black women.

I saw a women from africa, her skin was JET BLACK, and she had this accent when she spoke…I get goose bumps thinking about it.
I about fainted!!!

Just today I almost recked my car driving by this hottie…ANYWAY!!
Its impossible for anything soooo good to be ment as a curse.

And white people aren’t actualy “White”. they are light complected but not “white”.

How did the mormon church get something sooooo wrong, if they get direct revelation???

That,my friend, is the great question.

 

[excaliber]

That,my friend, is the great question.

yes because, that is obviously incorect. If my black skin turned white…I would be highly upset!!

I love the skin Im in!!!

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

I have a serious problem then!!
Because you see I have this thing for black women.
So basicly mormons are saying God made a mistake…He ment to curse cains offspring, but accidentally blessed mankind with BEAUTIFUL black women.

I saw a women from africa, her skin was JET BLACK, and she had this accent when she spoke…I get goose bumps thinking about it.
I about fainted!!!

Just today I almost recked my car driving by this hottie…ANYWAY!!
Its impossible for anything soooo good to be ment as a curse.

And white people aren’t actualy “White”. they are light complected but not “white”.

How did the mormon church get something sooooo wrong, if they get direct revelation???

Hi Excaliber,

If I may ( WHAAAAAT was the point of that post ???)

Was is that you do not agree with the seemingly racist history of the LDS, OR was it that because you seem horny and object because you have a preference for the " black women " ???

Forgive me but I found your post almost as insulting as what you
( I think ) were in fact insulting.

At any rate,
God bless,
Carl

 

[Chris-WA]

Wow all these arguments against Black people joining the church, yet thousands are. Why is that?

I don’t know why you’re impressed by this. “Thousands” (if that’s even true at all) doesn’t impress. Out of 14 million members worldwide, blacks make up a tiny minority of the LDS church. You should be asking yourself why that is. You should also be asking yourself why the Mormon Church was one of the very last organizations on earth to attempt to put blacks on equal footing.

The simple fact is that if you walk into most Mormon wards in America today, the vast majority of the members are white. There is a reason for that. Now walk into a typical Catholic mass and you will see a mix of every race, because after all, it is the Universal Church.

I also bet many blacks who are baptized into the Mormon church were quite unaware that their race was excluded from the priesthood until 1978. I doubt the missionaries bring that up. I would like to hear from black members as to why they think the LDS Church excluded them from the priesthood until so recently.

 

[excaliber]

Hi Excaliber,

If I may ( WHAAAAAT was the point of that post ???)

Was is that you do not agree with the seemingly racist history of the LDS, OR was it that because you seem horny and object because you have a preference for the " black women " ???

Forgive me but I found your post almost as insulting as what you
( I think ) were in fact insulting.

At any rate,
God bless,
Carl

How else do you want me to explain it???
Obviously something Good canot be a curse.
Hope that’s not insulting…sheesh

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

How else do you want me to explain it???
Obviously something Good canot be a curse.
Hope that’s not insulting…sheesh

Hello again Excaliber,

I was not implying that you “should” explain it any differently to please me.

What I was suggesting, is that the LDS history of race and the very personal and sensitive topic that is in question, has deep seated as well as gigantically serious discussions that go to the core God’s love.

To severly minimize the above mentioned ( as I think you did ) with your personal testosterone desires of " hottie " black woman " or " jet black woman from africa that made you faint " does not begin to give it the weight in wich I feel it warrants.

Having said that, it is my humble opinion, that your post was indeed insulting. ( sorry )

God bless,
Carl

 

[excaliber]

Hello again Excaliber,

I was not implying that you “should” explain it any differently to please me.

What I was suggesting, is that the LDS history of race and the very personal and sensitive topic that is in question, has deep seated as well as gigantically serious discussions that go to the core God’s love.

To severly minimize the above mentioned ( as I think you did ) with your personal testosterone desires of " hottie " black woman " or " jet black woman from africa that made you faint " does not begin to give it the weight in wich I feel it warrants.

Having said that, it is my humble opinion, that your post was indeed insulting. ( sorry )

God bless,
Carl

I think you took what I said waaay more serious then I ment it.

 

[why_me]

Oh that is really idyllic isn’t it. I grew up in Utah.

I didn’t have a single black person in my school until I was 15 years old. Why? Black people were expected to live in black neighborhoods. The schools weren’t segregated, the neighborhoods were! Ogden being one those areas where it was ok to be black and live there. And there just were, and still are not, that many black people in Utah, period.

My mother worked as an usher at a theater when she was a teenager. She ushered black people to the mezzanine seats, and white people to the lower level. She said the people in the mezzanine would sneak down to the lower level once the lights were out.

There was a restaurant here in the 50’s, the store front was a cartoonish black face and the door was in the mouth of the face. I tried to find a photo of it…it was beyond racist.

The Hotel Utah did not allow black performers to stay there, and they had to use the back entrance to get to their performing venues. This hotel was owned by the LDS Church.

Please read this history.

The link that I took the information from was from an earlier post on this thread to prove that mormons are also racist. I did not see any information in the link to prove the posters point and I copied a section of the link.

You give a personal experience but the author of text gives a more general picture of the situation in Utah.

 

[why_me]

Bruce McConkie, in his book Mormon Doctrine:

“In the pre-existent eternity various degrees of valiance and devotion to the truth were exhibited by different groups of our Father’s spirit offspring, some were more valiant than others. Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin… Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The present status of the negro rests purely and simply on the foundation of pre-existence. The negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom, but this inequality is not of man’s origin. It is the Lord’s doing, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the lack of spiritual valiance of those concerned in their first estate.”

Here are quotes from the Book of Mormon on the matter:

1 Nephi 11:8 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.
1 Nephi 11:13 And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.
1 Nephi 12:23 And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations. (Joe Smith calls dark skinned people ugly, filthy, lazy, and perverts.)
1 Nephi 13:15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.
2 Nephi 5:21 For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
2 Nephi 30:6 And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure white (1830 edition) and a delightsome people.
Jacob 3:8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.
Alma 3:6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.
3 Nephi 2:15** And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites.**
Mormon 5:15 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.

I hate to be a party pooper here but the verses mentioned do not refer to Africans. They refer to a group of people centered in the Americas. In fact, the book itself has nothing to do with africans at all. Now of course, if you imply that it is about africans you are more or less saying that such is the stereo type of african americans and as such, regardless who the book is based upon, it implies africans. Which of course, is not true.

And need I remind you all that Bruce R. was rebuked for what he wrote in Mormon Doctrine. Mormon Doctrine is not an offical doctrinal book of the lds church.

 

[why_me]

I am black, and I visited the mormon church last week.

They were not racist…they were EXTREMELY kind.

The Roman Catholic churches near me are also mostly white, they were not racist twords me eather.

I question weather Mormons hold to the teaching that skin color is a result of a punishment ?

I would like to see an oficial mormon teaching on this matter.

The book of mormon has nothing to do with Africans. It has to do with people living in the americas, mainly from central and south america. Do not be fooled by the posters here, The verses mentioned have nothing to do with people with black skin.

 

[why_me]

The same could be said of the northern states, couldn’t it?

I suppose so. But in my hometown, the blacks lived across the river and certainly not in my town. There were black towns and cities and white towns and cities. There was a clear demarcation of the races in the northern states. And so, my town had no african-americans, only people of European ancestry. However, in the city across the river, there were hundreds of thousands of african americans. Hence, the idea of busing came into being.

 

[ibkc]

How else do you want me to explain it???
Obviously something Good canot be a curse.
Hope that’s not insulting…sheesh

I understood you, excaliber. And I agree that the differences in people are beautiful, not a curse, and that the relatively recent trend in history towards designating superiority/inferiority on people based purely on external factors is NOT from God. It’s from another place entirely, and a church which at any point has included this disgusting teaching is also not from God.

why me can protest all he wants that the bits from the BoM refer only to Native Americans (like that makes it any better!) and that no one pays any attention to Bruce McConkie, but the fact of the matter is that the LDS church taught that dark-skinned peoples are spiritually inferior to white people, and even though the barrier against the priesthood was lifted in recent times, the underlying teachings were never expurgated.

 

[ralphinal]

So the verses are only related to Native Americans. That means the issues with those of African descent was pure old fashioned Hatred. Good to know.

Why would the concept not apply to both? Was dark skin not the mark of Cain preserved through Ham’s wife?

 

[zaffiroborant]

I suppose so. But in my hometown, the blacks lived across the river and certainly not in my town. There were black towns and cities and white towns and cities. There was a clear demarcation of the races in the northern states. And so, my town had no african-americans, only people of European ancestry. However, in the city across the river, there were hundreds of thousands of african americans. Hence, the idea of busing came into being.

“Schools were open to all but were partially segregated as much by economic status as by race through residential living patterns.”

This statement applies just as well to your hometown as it does to Utah. Now I don’t certainly don’t believe that this was all happy happy joy joy. There was a lot of prejudice involved in the arrangement in your hometown, equal opportunity housing laws wouldn’t have been needed otherwise. But I don’t see Utah as some special place where prejudice was non-existent. And one RD like anecdote is not going to convince me of it’s specialness.