Black and LDS

[PaulDupre]

Well everyone else is talkin and stuff, And Im there with missionaries the WHOLE time…every now and again you wana chat with someone not trying to convert ya.

Missionaries are cool, but what are regular members like…missionaries are trained to talk to ya, its different to talk to someone that is talkin just to talk…not trained to do so.

Nah, the regular members will try to convert you, too. “Every member a missionary”.

 

[zerinus]

Well everyone else is talkin and stuff, And Im there with missionaries the WHOLE time…every now and again you wana chat with someone not trying to convert ya.

Missionaries are cool, but what are regular members like…missionaries are trained to talk to ya, its different to talk to someone that is talkin just to talk…not trained to do so.

Well, gently explain to them that you want to talk to other Church members, or just go and start talking to others, or sit next to them in whatever meetings you go to, and start a conversation. Feel your way around. Find out who the leaders of the ward are, like the bishop and his counsellors, and others like them, and start talking to them.

Ask the missionaries to introduce you to others. That is a good way of getting rid of them! Tell them you would like to get to know other ward members, and ask them to introduce you to them. You can think of all kinds of ways of getting round that problem. You can turn the problem into a solution if you know how!

zerinus

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

Well everyone else is talkin and stuff, And Im there with missionaries the WHOLE time…every now and again you wana chat with someone not trying to convert ya.

Missionaries are cool, but what are regular members like…missionaries are trained to talk to ya, its different to talk to someone that is talkin just to talk…not trained to do so.

Hi excaliber,

It seems to me ( after reading much of this thread ) that you might be missing the " 1700 lb. elephant in the room ".

Let us, for one second , say that you being black would allow you to have a " first in line " temple recomend and let us also say that you would be favored because of your race and thus be the highest of all priests in the LDS. If the above were true, would you be a Mormon tomorrow ???

It seems to me that the much bigger question for you to be asking is the question of the BoM and JS being true or being a complete fabrication.

I would also add that if your search discovers it true than you have many things to digest ( only one being potential racism ),
or if your search finds it a non truth then you have no need to worry about any of it ( including potential racism ).

I hope that came across as I intended it to. ( I, for what it is worth, think the " racism " is a mute point because that is just one thing of a mountain of things that equally hold no water.)

God bless,
Carl

 

[zerinus]

Hi excaliber,

It seems to me ( after reading much of this thread ) that you might be missing the " 1700 lb. elephant in the room ".

Let us, for one second , say that you being black would allow you to have a " first in line " temple recomend and let us also say that you would be favored because of your race and thus be the highest of all priests in the LDS. If the above were true, would you be a Mormon tomorrow ???

It seems to me that the much bigger question for you to be asking is the question of the BoM and JS being true or being a complete fabrication.

Excellent advice, excaliber. When all is said and done, everything rests on the truth of Joseph Smith as a prophet, and the Book of Mormon as a book of scripture and a revelation from God. Once you have determined that for yourself, everything else falls into place. Read the Book of Mormon for yourself, and determine the truth of it for yourself. If you just listen to the enemies of Mormonism, then of course they have nothing good to say about it. That is hardly a good approach to find out the truth of anything, by just listening to what you are told by its enemies. You have already followed the correct path, and found out for yourself that a lot of what you were told were not true. If you continue along that path, you will learn a lot more truth about Mormonism that you hadn’t known before.

zerinus

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

Excellent advice, excaliber. When all is said and done, everything rests on the truth of Joseph Smith as a prophet, and the Book of Mormon as a book of scripture and a revelation from God. Once you have determined that for yourself, everything else falls into place. Read the Book of Mormon for yourself, and determine the truth of it for yourself. If you just listen to the enemies of Mormonism, then of course they have nothing good to say about it. That is hardly a good approach to find out the truth of anything, by just listening to what you are told by its enemies. You have already followed the correct path, and found out for yourself that a lot of what you were told were not true. If you continue along that path, you will learn a lot more truth about Mormonism that you hadn’t known before.

zerinus

Not sure if the " advice " I was giving would lead to the above conclusion, rather it is my most humble opinion that when the BoM and JS is looked at from a genuinly objective ( and not a burning in the belly ) view, the conclusions of it’s merit and truth or fabrication is painfully clear.

At any rate, as my friend Z implies, " the correct path " should at least be taken with your eyes open.

God bless,
Carl

 

[why_me]

No, the Dark Ages gave birth to the High Middle Ages, which gave birth to the Late Middle Age, which gave birth to the Renaissance, which led into the Reformation. If you’re going to make an argument like this, please get your facts straight. The Dark Ages did not “give birth” to the Reformation.

In my opinion much began in the dark ages, hence, the term The Dark Ages. This is what I meant by giving birth to the Reformation.

 

[why_me]

This is so offensive on so many levels, especially considering the aggressively trashy behavior of the early Mormon wife-swapping leaders. Please take your persecution complex to someone who will buy it.

Okay, the Mormons were not persecuted. If you read Mormon history you will discover that many lds lost their lives only because they were mormon. Not to mention being driven from their homes and finally many losing their lives heading west to Utah. I would call this persecution as the Native American was persecuted by the same frontier folk.

And need I not mention the fact that JS was murdered by a mob along with his brother? Mob justice, frontier style.

 

[ibkc]

Okay, the Mormons were not persecuted. If you read Mormon history you will discover that many lds lost their lives only because they were mormon. Not to mention being driven from their homes and finally many losing their lives heading west to Utah. I would call this persecution as the Native American was persecuted by the same frontier folk.

No. No. I am sorry, but comparing what happened with the early Mormons, a bunch of white folks led by a gang of con men intent on what is now called “swinging” and on flouting the laws of the United States, with the plight of the Native Americans who had been here for thousands of years, is beyond offensive. Sick, even.

And need I not mention the fact that JS was murdered by a mob along with his brother? Mob justice, frontier style.

Again, 1000% brought on by his own actions, and let us not forget that dear ol’ Joe took a few of his attackers along with him into whatever kingdom he wound up in. He and his fellow prisoners in that incident were drunk on wine, as well. Let’s not forget the truth here.

 

[why_me]

Good thing for us all, except that when we quote from said publications many Mormons either outright deny the authenticity or try to “sweep it under the rug” by claiming that the records themselves are unreliable. Haven’t you done that on this thread yourself?

No, I think that they are quite reliable as long it is exactly what BY said or wrote. The lds church has published books such as: The Words of JS and The Teachings of the Prophet JS. In the first mentioned book, the quotations are usually taken from people’s diary entries or notes. Can I rely on an individual’s notes or journal? Maybe.

This is what makes such books or quotations unreliable. However, the lds church has chosen to publish such books. BY said much and done much. And when all is said and done, most of what he said was rather good.

The lds church has produced good fruit. It is certainly not bad fruit. Mormons make good citizens. They are generally productive and trustworthy. To my understanding BYU graduates are in much demand on the job circuit. Why? Because the lds church produces good fruit. And when all is said and done, this is not a bad thing.

 

[why_me]

No. No. I am sorry, but comparing what happened with the early Mormons, a bunch of white folks led by a gang of con men intent on what is now called “swinging” and on flouting the laws of the United States, with the plight of the Native Americans who had been here for thousands of years, is beyond offensive. Sick, even.

Again, 1000% brought on by his own actions, and let us not forget that dear ol’ Joe took a few of his attackers along with him into whatever kingdom he wound up in. He and his fellow prisoners in that incident were drunk on wine, as well. Let’s not forget the truth here.

I don’t think that it is sick at all. The frontier was an intolerant place and mormons were victims of this intolerance just as much as were the indians. Need I mention Governor Boggs extermination order toward the mormons? Intolerance breeds hatred and both groups (Mormon and Native American) suffered such hatred. And of course the African slaves faired not different.

In a free society, people should be allowed to practice their faith but this was being denied the mormons.

There is never an excuse for mob justice.

 

[ibkc]

I don’t think that it is sick at all. The frontier was an intolerant place and mormons were victims of this intolerance just as much as were the indians. Need I mention Governor Boggs extermination order toward the mormons? Intolerance breeds hatred and both groups (Mormon and Native American) suffered such hatred. And of course the African slaves faired not different.

In a free society, people should be allowed to practice their faith but this was being denied the mormons.

The Mormons were attempting to establish a theocracy, which is contrary to the laws of the United States. They put themselves in hostile positions wherever they went and Governor Boggs was right to address the threat that they posed. Yes, I say “threat.” The Mormons were the intolerant ones. As they still are.

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

No, I think that they are quite reliable as long it is exactly what BY said or wrote. The lds church has published books such as: The Words of JS and The Teachings of the Prophet JS. In the first mentioned book, the quotations are usually taken from people’s diary entries or notes. Can I rely on an individual’s notes or journal? Maybe.

This is what makes such books or quotations unreliable. However, the lds church has chosen to publish such books. BY said much and done much. And when all is said and done, most of what he said was rather good.

The lds church has produced good fruit. It is certainly not bad fruit. Mormons make good citizens. They are generally productive and trustworthy. To my understanding BYU graduates are in much demand on the job circuit. Why? Because the lds church produces good fruit. And when all is said and done, this is not a bad thing.

Hi why me,

With respect, I can not figure out why some Mormons desperatly hold on to the history of the LDS, JS, BY and others and then in the next post these same Mormons say that the history is " evolving " or that the teachings have changed for this or that reason ( seems more then a little confusing )

I will add ( if I may ) that the few Morman’s I know personally are indeed wonderfull, trustworthy citizens and would add that I agree that BYU is indeed a top notch school. What I do not understand is what the above mentioned has to to with the validity or fabrication of the religion itself.

God bless,
Carl

 

[excaliber]

Is there ANYTHING in the bible that deals with denominations?
In the old or new testiment?

I find mostly scriptures of tolerance…for example Jesus let a man his Apostles did not know cast out demons (or something) in his name. His Apostles wanted to stop him but Jesus (God himself) aloud it.

Then there is the story of wheat and weeds, the weeds were aloud to grow with the wheat so that the wheat would not be uprooted with the weeds.

Denominationalism is beyond the human ability to solve with what 30,000 of them? Most people stick to the religion of there birth, REGARDLESS of racism because it takes a LOT for a dedicated member of a denomination to doubt that denomination.

Look around, one man taking many women…people flying planes into buildings…racism…etc…etc…

I think when it comes down two it,
People have needs. Spiritual needs,They want to feel apart of something,questions that need answering…etc…etc…

The bible says keep seeking first the kingdom and all other things will be added to you.
There is a church that can back up this huge claim. But ofcourse a dedicated member of a church from birth is rarely open to that.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

I don’t think that it is sick at all. The frontier was an intolerant place and mormons were victims of this intolerance just as much as were the indians. Need I mention Governor Boggs extermination order toward the mormons?..

Response: That “extermination order” was a horrible over reaction–but even a Mormon Historian (a book titled The Missouri War I think) admitted the LDS exacerbated the situation by using the word "extermination" first! Stanley Rigdon preached a blistering sermon against non-Mormon Missourians, when the intial hostility was already begining to die down–Rigdon said if there was any other actions against the Mormons it would turn into “a war of extermination against the genitles” Joseph Smith Jr was present, and apparently approved because he authorized the printing and distribution of this sermon across Missouri.

In a free society, people should be allowed to practice their faith but this was being denied the mormons.

Response: LDS says they were persecuted for their “faith” when in fact, the oddities and absurdities of their religion most Americans could care less–what they did react to was Smith’s pattern of power-seeking and money grabing; ie, the bank fraud in Kirtland, the vote fraud in Missouri, and the rise of the Nauvoo militia, second only in power to the Federal Army–and the leaked insider info that Smith considered himself a consecrated King
.

 

[excaliber]

Hi why me,

With respect, I can not figure out why some Mormons desperatly hold on to the history of the LDS, JS, BY and others and then in the next post these same Mormons say that the history is " evolving " or that the teachings have changed for this or that reason ( seems more then a little confusing )

I will add ( if I may ) that the few Morman’s I know personally are indeed wonderfull, trustworthy citizens and would add that I agree that BYU is indeed a top notch school. What I do not understand is what the above mentioned has to to with the validity or fabrication of the religion itself.

God bless,
Carl

That’s because your Catholic. LOL
There is a lot a Catholic would not understand because you have so much.
You have Noter Dame university which is not to shaby eather…you have lots of schools actualy.

However a JW would understand his statement differently…or interpret it differently.

JW’s don’t have a school…AT ALL.
They produce poorly educated people that many times leave and become athiests.

So the mormons produce WAY better fruit then JW’s.

Catholics produce way more fruit then most…just gota produce more priests for alllllll those people.

 

[zerinus]

Hi why me,

With respect, I can not figure out why some Mormons desperatly hold on to the history of the LDS, JS, BY and others and then in the next post these same Mormons say that the history is " evolving " or that the teachings have changed for this or that reason ( seems more then a little confusing )

I didn’t make much sense of that one. Perhaps you should explain.

I will add ( if I may ) that the few Morman’s I know personally are indeed wonderfull, trustworthy citizens and would add that I agree that BYU is indeed a top notch school. What I do not understand is what the above mentioned has to to with the validity or fabrication of the religion itself.

Well, Jesus did say “you shall know them by their fruit”. If the fruit is good, then we conclude that the tree must be good too.

zerinus

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

That’s because your Catholic. LOL
There is a lot a Catholic would not understand because you have so much.
You have Noter Dame university which is not to shaby eather…you have lots of schools actualy.

However a JW would understand his statement differently…or interpret it differently.

JW’s don’t have a school…AT ALL.
They produce poorly educated people that many times leave and become athiests.

So the mormons produce WAY better fruit then JW’s.

Catholics produce way more fruit then most…just gota produce more priests for alllllll those people.

Hi excaliber,

Thanks for offering your perspective ( It was interesting )

I still, however, do not see what schools or " productive citizens " have to do with the TRUTH of the faith one decides to follow.

I do thank you for sharing your thoughts .

God bless,
Carl

 

[excaliber]

Hi excaliber,

Thanks for offering your perspective ( It was interesting )

I still, however, do not see what schools or " productive citizens " have to do with the TRUTH of the faith one decides to follow.

I do thank you for sharing your thoughts .

God bless,
Carl

Ok so for you the fruit is the teaching not the people.
Catholic teaching IS VERY solid…so solid that religions half the age of the Catholic church are the one’s that flip flop.
It would actualy be flawless if it wasent for those orthodox…just as old…just as valid…with different teachings.

But yea Catholic teaching is very solid…if teaching was the fruit you would have to sort through the whole what is and is not Catholic infalible teaching subject.

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

Ok so for you the fruit is the teaching not the people.

Hi again excaliber,

No, the fruit is the fruit ( the product or people of that said faith )
What concerns me a great deal is when we put such emphasis on the " behavior " or " kindness " of the broken people ( ME INCLUDED ) and loose sight of, or the importance of the actuall religion we claim to be vested in.

Peace,
Carl

 

[Carl_Nicholas]

Well, Jesus did say “you shall know them by their fruit”. If the fruit is good, then we conclude that the tree must be good too.

Hello Z,

Interesting post, Does that go for ALL???

If I can show you good fruit ( great neighbors, productive citizens, graduates of top notch schools, humble, kind CATHOLIC folks, would you conclude that tree must be a good one ???
( see you at RCIA )

God bless,
Your proud RCIA sponsor ( Carl )