Blaming The Victim

[Xantippe]

TeutonicKnight said:

“I appreciate your support and advice, but I don’t think planning an escape is quite necessary.”

Not literally, but figuratively–figuring out exactly what you need to live independently and then methodically providing yourself with those skills and resources–a job, a savings account, a car (or bike), independent living skills, etc. At that point, once you have everything you need to live independently, you might not even need to do it–you might just need to know that you are free and you can leave any time you want.

EasterJoy said:

“If this 14 year old was going around luring 11 year olds into smoking cigarettes, they’d probably see this differently.”

Oh, yes–or watching R-rated movies, or using bad language, or whatever. A 3-year gap is very substantial at that age. I have an 11-year-old girl and an 8-year-old boy, and I’m very vigilant about making sure that she isn’t annoying or exploiting her younger brother (making him play a game he doesn’t want to play, nagging him into an unfair financial arrangement). I require that all financial transactions go through me to avoid him being pressured into a bad deal that he doesn’t want.

TeutonicKnight said:

“They are also somewhat mad that I went to friends and the government instead of them. They believe I should have went to them and they would have taken care of the issue privately without government intervention.”

Gah.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

TeutonicKnight said:

“I appreciate your support and advice, but I don’t think planning an escape is quite necessary.”

Not literally, but figuratively–figuring out exactly what you need to live independently and then methodically providing yourself with those skills and resources–a job, a savings account, a car (or bike), independent living skills, etc. At that point, once you have everything you need to live independently, you might not even need to do it–you might just need to know that you are free and you can leave any time you want.

EasterJoy said:

“If this 14 year old was going around luring 11 year olds into smoking cigarettes, they’d probably see this differently.”

Oh, yes–or watching R-rated movies, or using bad language, or whatever. A 3-year gap is very substantial at that age. I have an 11-year-old girl and an 8-year-old boy, and I’m very vigilant about making sure that she isn’t annoying or exploiting her younger brother (making him play a game he doesn’t want to play, nagging him into an unfair financial arrangement). I require that all financial transactions go through me to avoid him being pressured into a bad deal that he doesn’t want.

TeutonicKnight said:

“They are also somewhat mad that I went to friends and the government instead of them. They believe I should have went to them and they would have taken care of the issue privately without government intervention.”

Gah.

I am capable of independence. I’ve had a job since I was four (Family business), I know how to cook, I can drive, etc. But my plans are to go to college, and I need to make sure I don’t make them really mad at me, because I need them so I can get student loans.

 

[EasterJoy]

As one of my adult friends once said, if they weren’t close to the abuser, they would probably be livid. But they have an emotional attachment to him, so they can’t accept that be would do something like this, and they somewhat take his side.

They are also somewhat mad that I went to friends and the government instead of them. They believe I should have went to them and they would have taken care of the issue privately without government intervention.

Their contention that it ought to have been handled privately shows that you and your friends did the right thing. Think how upset they would be if you had disclosed to them, they had told you not to tell anyone, they did essentially nothing to get the abuser the attention he needs or to give those around him the protection they need, and then you did the right thing and told someone who would act appropriately. They’d see it as defiance of their authority, if I guess correctly. I think this played out as well as could be hoped…your guardian angel is doing the best he can with the situation you have!

I think you are wise to avoid arguing the point with them, because they are simply not ready to accept the truth of the situation. They hold some common misconceptions, they don’t want to let go of them, and you are old enough to get your help elsewhere without convincing them that they are wrong.

So what to do about that elephant? Perhaps, with the help of your support system, you can look at your parents’ “awakening” as something that God will have to bring about for you farther down the road. After all, we all know that the Day will come when all truth will be made manifest. If you can see that awakening as something that will happen in God’s time, perhaps you can let go of making it happen yourself. That won’t remove the load entirely, because of course there is going to be repercussions due to their blindness to your situation. Since it takes the onus off of you to bring them around, though, it may help you to accept that this is one of those things that you can’t change, but also to have the knowledge that sooner or later, it will change. One day all truth will be made known, and we can put our hope for mercy and vindication onto that day. Put it into God’s hands, and tend to those things that you ought to be doing, letting God take care of those things that are beyond your control. Since love covers a multitude of sins, this act of penance on behalf of your parents will surely win you even greater mercy for whatever blindnesses you hold onto yourself in this life. Perhaps the peace of that thought can give you strength.

 

[Xantippe]

“I am capable of independence. I’ve had a job since I was four (Family business), I know how to cook, I can drive, etc. But my plans are to go to college, and I need to make sure I don’t make them really mad at me, because I need them so I can get student loans.”

That’s all a good start, but I think that cosigning student loans with them is moving in exactly the wrong direction. To be planning to spend another six years financially under their thumb and then to spend who knows how long tied to them by the terms of the student loan (10 years? 15 years?) is a terrible price to pay in terms of your mental health. Signing a loan together with your parents is like handcuffing yourself to them for the life of the loan.

I think I would suggest getting as many community college credits under your belt that you can as a minor and also seeking as much financial advice as you can in order to not be financially dependent on your parents for college.

If they had some sort of breakthrough and realized how badly they’d been treating you, that would be different, but as long as your home situation is this toxic, you are doing terrible harm to yourself by delaying your independence, even for something as important as college. (And believe me, you won’t be independent until the day your last cosigned student loan is paid off.)

There is a CAF personal finance forum. It’s not as fast-moving as the Family forum, but there is activity there. There are also a lot of personal advice blogs on the internet where you could submit a question and get advice. I know things have changed a lot since I was in college 20 years ago, but one lucrative possibility that comes to mind is that once you are a sophomore or older, you could be a Resident Advisor (an RA) and score free housing and maybe even some meal plan privileges.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

Their contention that it ought to have been handled privately shows that you and your friends did the right thing. Think how upset they would be if you had disclosed to them, they had told you not to tell anyone, they did essentially nothing to get the abuser the attention he needs or to give those around him the protection they need, and then you did the right thing and told someone who would act appropriately. They’d see it as defiance of their authority, if I guess correctly. I think this played out as well as could be hoped…your guardian angel is doing the best he can with the situation you have!

I think you are wise to avoid arguing the point with them, because they are simply not ready to accept the truth of the situation. They hold some common misconceptions, they don’t want to let go of them, and you are old enough to get your help elsewhere without convincing them that they are wrong.

So what to do about that elephant? Perhaps, with the help of your support system, you can look at your parents’ “awakening” as something that God will have to bring about for you farther down the road. After all, we all know that the Day will come when all truth will be made manifest. If you can see that awakening as something that will happen in God’s time, perhaps you can let go of making it happen yourself. That won’t remove the load entirely, because of course there is going to be repercussions due to their blindness to your situation. Since it takes the onus off of you to bring them around, though, it may help you to accept that this is one of those things that you can’t change, but also to have the knowledge that sooner or later, it will change. One day all truth will be made known, and we can put our hope for mercy and vindication onto that day. Put it into God’s hands, and tend to those things that you ought to be doing, letting God take care of those things that are beyond your control. Since love covers a multitude of sins, this act of penance on behalf of your parents will surely win you even greater mercy for whatever blindnesses you hold onto yourself in this life. Perhaps the peace of that thought can give you strength.

I was actually planning to report it myself, but I wanted to tell my sister first. I was certain that if she was made aware of the situation she would support me (We’ve always been really close, and she’s always been a mother to me). However, she doesn’t believe it was abuse, and she is another supporter in the idea that I’m simply unable to deal with the guilt of it.

“I am capable of independence. I’ve had a job since I was four (Family business), I know how to cook, I can drive, etc. But my plans are to go to college, and I need to make sure I don’t make them really mad at me, because I need them so I can get student loans.”

That’s all a good start, but I think that cosigning student loans with them is moving in exactly the wrong direction. To be planning to spend another six years financially under their thumb and then to spend who knows how long tied to them by the terms of the student loan (10 years? 15 years?) is a terrible price to pay in terms of your mental health. Signing a loan together with your parents is like handcuffing yourself to them for the life of the loan.

I think I would suggest getting as many community college credits under your belt that you can as a minor and also seeking as much financial advice as you can in order to not be financially dependent on your parents for college.

If they had some sort of breakthrough and realized how badly they’d been treating you, that would be different, but as long as your home situation is this toxic, you are doing terrible harm to yourself by delaying your independence, even for something as important as college. (And believe me, you won’t be independent until the day your last cosigned student loan is paid off.)

There is a CAF personal finance forum. It’s not as fast-moving as the Family forum, but there is activity there. There are also a lot of personal advice blogs on the internet where you could submit a question and get advice. I know things have changed a lot since I was in college 20 years ago, but one lucrative possibility that comes to mind is that once you are a sophomore or older, you could be a Resident Advisor (an RA) and score free housing and maybe even some meal plan privileges.

I can’t do community college credits because I’m homeschooled. They won’t accept me to do any classes, and I have to go to a university because public colleges won’t accept me.

Is it possible to get student loans on you alone? I was under the impression you had to get loans on your parents as well, but is this not the case?

 

[Xantippe]

“I can’t do community college credits because I’m homeschooled. They won’t accept me to do any classes, and I have to go to a university because public colleges won’t accept me.”

Really? Are you in the US? Can you get a GED? I keep hearing about homeschooling kids doing community college classes, so it must be possible in some areas. A homeschooled teenage daughter of a friend did a community college class here in Texas and in some states (Washington comes to mind) there’s a special program for high school students to do community college classes while in high school. In Washington State, it’s called “Running Start.” It might, in fact, be worthwhile to formally re-enroll in public school if that was the requirement for eligibility in a similar program, which could be a very good deal for you if the equivalent exists in your state.

k12.wa.us/SecondaryEducation/CareerCollegeReadiness/RunningStart.aspx

With a GED, you should be able to do community college classes pretty much anywhere, and with a GED, a track record of community college classes and decent SATs, you should be able to get into a public college of some sort.

This is your life on the line, so research this as if your life depends on it, because it does.

 

[EasterJoy]

I was actually planning to report it myself, but I wanted to tell my sister first. I was certain that if she was made aware of the situation she would support me (We’ve always been really close, and she’s always been a mother to me). However, she doesn’t believe it was abuse, and she is another supporter in the idea that I’m simply unable to deal with the guilt of it.

Ouch. Your family actually believes that eleven year olds are capable of mature decisions with regards to sex, that an eleven year old being pressured to do something sexual by a kid three years older is culpable for that? The apple has not fallen far from the tree. Sounds like people who believe rape victims “deserved it” if they were wearing immodest clothing when they were assaulted.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

“I can’t do community college credits because I’m homeschooled. They won’t accept me to do any classes, and I have to go to a university because public colleges won’t accept me.”

Really? Are you in the US? Can you get a GED? I keep hearing about homeschooling kids doing community college classes, so it must be possible in some areas. A homeschooled teenage daughter of a friend did a community college class here in Texas and in some states (Washington comes to mind) there’s a special program for high school students to do community college classes while in high school. In Washington State, it’s called “Running Start.” It might, in fact, be worthwhile to formally re-enroll in public school if that was the requirement for eligibility in a similar program, which could be a very good deal for you if the equivalent exists in your state.

k12.wa.us/SecondaryEducation/CareerCollegeReadiness/RunningStart.aspx

With a GED, you should be able to do community college classes pretty much anywhere, and with a GED, a track record of community college classes and decent SATs, you should be able to get into a public college of some sort.

This is your life on the line, so research this as if your life depends on it, because it does.

It’s not a formal homeschool like Seton. It’s a home program with its own curriculum not recognized by the State (Yes, these are legal and in fact a semi-normal thing among homeschoolers). I also want to avoid the GED like the plague, because nobody respects them. On top of that, I wouldn’t ever consider a college other than Benedictine. It’s a wonderful college, and I’ve always wanted to go there.

Ouch. Your family actually believes that eleven year olds are capable of mature decisions with regards to sex, that an eleven year old being pressured to do something sexual by a kid three years older is culpable for that? The apple has not fallen far from the tree. Sounds like people who believe rape victims “deserved it” if they were wearing immodest clothing when they were assaulted.

According to them, eleven year olds are capable of making such decisions, and yet when I’m seventeen and get a full license they won’t allow me to drive by myself for forever. Their ideas on maturity are rather selective.

They don’t believe a rape victim “deserved it” for being immodest so much as she was “asking for it”.

 

[EasterJoy]

According to them, eleven year olds are capable of making such decisions, and yet when I’m seventeen and get a full license they won’t allow me to drive by myself for forever. Their ideas on maturity are rather selective.

It is one thing to say that an eleven-year-old who cooks up something like that and talking another eleven-year-old into it needs some serious attention. I would not say it is culpability so much as a conscience that is not forming according to the norm. We’re not talking about trying to walk out of a candy store with candy in your pocket!! It is quite another to say that if a 14 year-old pressures an 11-year-old to do something that the 11-year-old would never have done that it is the 11-year-old is at fault. When an older person ruins a younger one’s innocence, it is heaping insult onto injury to put the blame onto the younger one.

When the little one sins, does the Lord condemn the little one? No, the Lord condemns the one who caused the little one to stumble, and in the strongest terms: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” That verse comes right after “whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.”

But we are preaching to the choir about people who are tone-deaf. If you understand that they are totally in the wrong, that is sufficient.

They don’t believe a rape victim “deserved it” for being immodest so much as she was “asking for it”.

I think you realize the supreme degree to which that is splitting hairs.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

It is one thing to say that an eleven-year-old who cooks up something like that and talking another eleven-year-old into it needs some serious attention. I would not say it is culpability so much as a conscience that is not forming according to the norm. We’re not talking about trying to walk out of a candy store with candy in your pocket!! It is quite another to say that if a 14 year-old pressures an 11-year-old to do something that the 11-year-old would never have done that it is the 11-year-old is at fault. When an older person ruins a younger one’s innocence, it is heaping insult onto injury to put the blame onto the younger one.

When the little one sins, does the Lord condemn the little one? No, the Lord condemns the one who caused the little one to stumble, and in the strongest terms: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” That verse comes right after “whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.”

But we are preaching to the choir about people who are tone-deaf. If you understand that they are totally in the wrong, that is sufficient.

I think you realize the supreme degree to which that is splitting hairs.

I just don’t think they realize it, nor do they want to. I don’t think they want to understand that sometimes this can just be the fault of one person and not the other. But you have to understand that in the generation they were raised in, there was no such thing as someone not being responsible. Everyone was responsible, even if it was insignificant. That’s where golden lines such as “Was it even kind of consensual?” stem from. There’s no such thing as “kind of” consensual. It either is or it isn’t, and it wasn’t. There’s no in-between.

 

[Xantippe]

“It’s not a formal homeschool like Seton. It’s a home program with its own curriculum not recognized by the State (Yes, these are legal and in fact a semi-normal thing among homeschoolers). I also want to avoid the GED like the plague, because nobody respects them. On top of that, I wouldn’t ever consider a college other than Benedictine. It’s a wonderful college, and I’ve always wanted to go there.”

Your plans really worry me. I’m married to a college professor and I read a lot of higher education stuff, and you’re setting yourself up for trouble.

1. As I said before, your student loan plan will shackle you to your parents indefinitely.
2. You may not get into Benedictine.
3. If you’re looking at this Benedictine,

benedictine.edu/admissions/tuition-scholarship/tuition-fees

it’s $30k a year for tuition, room and board. That’s $120,000 that you don’t have if you manage to graduate in four years, which may not happen.

1. If you borrow that much money (or even half or a third that much), it will limit your future choices. Vocations directors won’t like it. In fact, one of the qualifications the Archdiocese of Arlington gives here is that the candidate for the priesthood have no more than $60k in student loans and no more than $3k in net indebtedness (i.e. if you add up debts and assets, the net should be no more than $3k).

arlingtondiocese.org/vocations/voc_priesthood.aspx

Furthermore, prospective spouses or in-laws won’t like it, either. If the debt is big enough, it may force your future wife to continue working while your children are babies, even if she really wants to stay home with them. A prudent young woman might consider that too high a price to pay to be with you and choose not to become involved with you if your debt is too high, so it might cost you very dearly.

1. Debt sounds small when you’re taking it out, but it’s soul-sucking when it’s time to pay it back. I took out $6k in student loans 20 years ago. I was in my 30s and had two kids before my husband and I managed to pay it off, about 15 years later. There are lots of horrid student loan stories in the press, if you look around.

nytimes.com/2010/05/29/your-money/student-loans/29money.html

Courtney Munna could be you, if you make the wrong choices about college.

Current conventional wisdom on this for those with financial limitations is 1) get as many qualifying credits as possible at community college 2) transfer to a state school. There is some fine print here, as private colleges often have nice financial aid, but it’s not a bad rule of thumb. If you had the money, or if you could get a generous scholarship that brings the cost down to the equivalent of state college, I’d say Benedictine all the way, but it’s not clear that you have that luxury.

 

[Allegra]

I can’t do community college credits because I’m homeschooled. They won’t accept me to do any classes, and I have to go to a university because public colleges won’t accept me.

Is it possible to get student loans on you alone? I was under the impression you had to get loans on your parents as well, but is this not the case?

Where did you get this information? Community colleges often take homeschooled students, even before they have graduated/turned 18. Actually, community colleges generally take anyone who has the price of the class. I worked as an admissions counselor in a public college for years and I can guarentee you that homeschooled students are frequently accepted. Your transcript may not be taken into consideration, unless it is through an accedited online program, but your ACT/SAT scores certainly will. You can also take out federal student loans in your own name, once you are 18. Most students do not have a parent’s cosignature for student loans unless they are taken out from another party such as a bank or credit union.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

Where did you get this information? Community colleges often take homeschooled students, even before they have graduated/turned 18. Actually, community colleges generally take anyone who has the price of the class. I worked as an admissions counselor in a public college for years and I can guarentee you that homeschooled students are frequently accepted. Your transcript may not be taken into consideration, unless it is through an accedited online program, but your ACT/SAT scores certainly will. You can also take out federal student loans in your own name, once you are 18. Most students do not have a parent’s cosignature for student loans unless they are taken out from another party such as a bank or credit union.

I’m not doing the ACT’s until next spring or summer.

 

[Allegra]

I’m not doing the ACT’s until next spring or summer.

When you take them, that’s what public colleges and universities will consider primarily for admission. They may also have enterance essays or interviews. They may not consider your transcript except for the class you take in community college. You certainly can be admitted if your scores are good.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

“It’s not a formal homeschool like Seton. It’s a home program with its own curriculum not recognized by the State (Yes, these are legal and in fact a semi-normal thing among homeschoolers). I also want to avoid the GED like the plague, because nobody respects them. On top of that, I wouldn’t ever consider a college other than Benedictine. It’s a wonderful college, and I’ve always wanted to go there.”

Your plans really worry me. I’m married to a college professor and I read a lot of higher education stuff, and you’re setting yourself up for trouble.

1. As I said before, your student loan plan will shackle you to your parents indefinitely.
2. You may not get into Benedictine.
3. If you’re looking at this Benedictine,

benedictine.edu/admissions/tuition-scholarship/tuition-fees

it’s $30k a year for tuition, room and board. That’s $120,000 that you don’t have if you manage to graduate in four years, which may not happen.

1. If you borrow that much money (or even half or a third that much), it will limit your future choices. Vocations directors won’t like it. In fact, one of the qualifications the Archdiocese of Arlington gives here is that the candidate for the priesthood have no more than $60k in student loans and no more than $3k in net indebtedness (i.e. if you add up debts and assets, the net should be no more than $3k).

arlingtondiocese.org/vocations/voc_priesthood.aspx

Furthermore, prospective spouses or in-laws won’t like it, either. If the debt is big enough, it may force your future wife to continue working while your children are babies, even if she really wants to stay home with them. A prudent young woman might consider that too high a price to pay to be with you and choose not to become involved with you if your debt is too high, so it might cost you very dearly.

1. Debt sounds small when you’re taking it out, but it’s soul-sucking when it’s time to pay it back. I took out $6k in student loans 20 years ago. I was in my 30s and had two kids before my husband and I managed to pay it off, about 15 years later. There are lots of horrid student loan stories in the press, if you look around.

nytimes.com/2010/05/29/your-money/student-loans/29money.html

Courtney Munna could be you, if you make the wrong choices about college.

Current conventional wisdom on this for those with financial limitations is 1) get as many qualifying credits as possible at community college 2) transfer to a state school. There is some fine print here, as private colleges often have nice financial aid, but it’s not a bad rule of thumb. If you had the money, or if you could get a generous scholarship that brings the cost down to the equivalent of state college, I’d say Benedictine all the way, but it’s not clear that you have that luxury.

I know you don’t mean this to be insulting, but I have actually thought this through. I am aware of what Benedictine costs, as my sister went there. I will get scholarships, and it’s not that hard to get in. Everyone that goes to Benedictine knows most people get married straight out of college with fellow graduates, so she and her parents can’t complain about my debt when she has her own. On top of that, I’m going into engineering, which actually pays really well. Every back-up I have also pays well.

 

[Xantippe]

“On top of that, I’m going into engineering, which actually pays really well.”

I’ve never heard of a Catholic college having a good engineering program–usually it’s liberal arts.

How much debt did your sister wind up with?

I hope you pull it off, but I hope you’ll forgive us for pointing out where the alligators are. It did seem a little weird that you were saying that you can’t do community college because you’re homeschooled when so many homeschoolers do community college classes.

 

[holyrood]

I am capable of independence. I’ve had a job since I was four (Family business), I know how to cook, I can drive, etc. But my plans are to go to college, and I need to make sure I don’t make them really mad at me, because I need them so I can get student loans.

I filled out paperwork to financially, legally emancipate myself from my parents. That way, I was able to apply for grants and loans based on my own income, not my parents. Just an idea.

 

[EasterJoy]

“On top of that, I’m going into engineering, which actually pays really well.”

I’ve never heard of a Catholic college having a good engineering program–usually it’s liberal arts…

The University of Portland has a very good engineering program.

 

[EasterJoy]

I just don’t think they realize it, nor do they want to. I don’t think they want to understand that sometimes this can just be the fault of one person and not the other. But you have to understand that in the generation they were raised in, there was no such thing as someone not being responsible. Everyone was responsible, even if it was insignificant. That’s where golden lines such as “Was it even kind of consensual?” stem from. There’s no such thing as “kind of” consensual. It either is or it isn’t, and it wasn’t. There’s no in-between.

Yes, I think they are confused. A little boy who disobediently plays on the street is wrong, he would have to confess that, but if he gets hit by a car and killed, it is not a suicide and it is not his fault. It is the responsibility of adults to keep children away from dangers they cannot understand…the child killed by a car was killed by the fault of adults, and a child who is sexually molested, even if he were to seek out sexual adventure actively after being warned not to do so, would be guilty of disobedience, but not sexual sin. If there is blame to be laid (which in both the case of the car accident and in the case of the sexual abuse is usually not proper), it belongs with the adults. In truth, though, it is the trauma the child suffers that must be seen to. No one wants these things to happen–well, it is an evil beyond speaking when a parent wants this kind of thing or fully appreciates such a danger and does not care–and while vigilance is in order before the fact, it does no good to find fault after the fact.

I hope you will try to see your parents as you would if they had let you get hit by a car. They might scold you, but do know who is really feeling the guilt over what happened. Whether they admit it or not, they have to be feeling extremely guilty for what was done to you, and for how long.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

“On top of that, I’m going into engineering, which actually pays really well.”

I’ve never heard of a Catholic college having a good engineering program–usually it’s liberal arts.

How much debt did your sister wind up with?

I hope you pull it off, but I hope you’ll forgive us for pointing out where the alligators are. It did seem a little weird that you were saying that you can’t do community college because you’re homeschooled when so many homeschoolers do community college classes.

Benedictine is a liberal arts college, but it also has an excellent engineering program. You can even look it up on the site, if you’d like.

I can’t quite remember. She got scholarships, though, so it wasn’t an insurmountable number like 120,000.

I was just unaware tha homeschoolers could do that is all. I’m used to being told I can’t do things because of it. I can’t do sports at the school, I’m not typically allowed to join the military, I can’t go to public colleges like KU without a GED, etc. It’s astounding how much you can’t do simply because you did school at home.