Book of Mormon foolishness--Jaredite ships

[ParkerD]

mormonpro-Actually the real evidence suggests much of the Book of Mormon was copied from a couple of different writers books available at the time of Joseph Smith. B. H. Roberts, As a Historian and General Authority of the LDS Church, come to question the Book of Mormon. B. H. Roberts typewritten manuscript “Book of Mormon Difficulties” is over 400 pages long, in it he admitted that the Book of Mormon is in conflict with what is now known from 20th century archaeological investigation about the early inhabitants of America. After going into a lengthy explanation of impossibilities in the Book of Mormon he also says that he has come to discover things he didn’t know earlier in his life, for instance, that Joseph Smith did have access to a number of books that could have assisted him and given him ideas for the Book of Mormon.
Roberts then goes on to say that Joseph could have gotten his information from “knowledge” that existed in the community, because of the books like Ethan Smith’s “View of the Hebrews” (published nearby in 823) and Josiah Priest’s book, “The Wonders of Nature and Providence,” published only 20 miles away, about one year later. That book had lots to say about the Hebrew origin of American Indians and their advanced culture and civilization.
Also, It is obvious to any Bible Scholar that Joseph Smith heavily plagiarized the Bible often quoting word for word, once again from different books and authors. These factors easily account for the ‘changes in writing style’ and ‘learning source’ Parker speaks of. … any who take a closer look and are honest.

Mormon “Pro”,
I am fine with your post. It illustrates my point, in two ways. BH Roberts was a deep thinker, and was not content to accept non-studied explanations, so he wrote a long book about his own deliberations. I haven’t read his book, nor do I care to do so. But I have read some of Ethan Smith’s writing, and it is just fine–so what if he thought the house of Israel could have been “scattered” to the New World. Anyone reading the Bible could figure that out. Anyone, anytime after it was available for the reading. The Old Testament is full of allusions to a scattering of the house of Israel to all parts of the world. It was commonly understood prophecy.

So what of the Biblical verses in the Book of Mormon? I’m glad those passages are exactly as they are to allow people who want to have an excuse to not do serious thinking about the entire text and its genuinity, sincerity, and authenticity of language and content, will have their excuse and can go on their way. It’s a gift to them by Joseph Smith or Mormon: you’re off the hook, you have a benign excuse that works for you.

 

[PaulDupre]

As far as Parker’s other points, just look at what critics have done with the word tapir. This is an unknown word and because of it, an unknown animal. I have seen critics mock this word. And yet, why would JS include it in the book, if not taken directly from a translation?

The word tapir is NOT in the BOM. The tapir is a known animal. Have you ever read the Book of Mormon? I suspect not.

Perhaps what you are thinking of are the words curelom and cumom, one or the other of which BOM apologists have speculated was a tapir.

You should not defend something you know nothing about.

 

[BartBurk]

The word tapir is NOT in the BOM. The tapir is a known animal. Have you ever read the Book of Mormon? I suspect not.

Perhaps what you are thinking of are the words curelom and cumom, one or the other of which BOM apologists have speculated was a tapir.

You should not defend something you know nothing about.

I’ve been reading through a few of these Mormon threads. The Mormons here seem to stretch further and further everyday. I saw one post which asked the only question I need answered from Mormons:

If the Mormon Church were false, would you want to know?

My guess is that most Mormons don’t really want to know the obvious truth – the LDS Church is false.

 

[ParkerD]

I’ve been reading through a few of these Mormon threads. The Mormons here seem to stretch further and further everyday. I saw one post which asked the only question I need answered from Mormons:

If the Mormon Church were false, would you want to know?

My guess is that most Mormons don’t really want to know the obvious truth – the LDS Church is false.

Bart,
You don’t get it. Speaking for myself, I don’t rely on anyone else to know that I have a personal relationship with Heavenly Father, with Jesus Christ, and with the Holy Spirit. Since They tell me by personal revelation that the LDS Church is the fully authorized true church, established in these last days before the Millenium to help prepare the way for the Second Coming of the Lord, and being that all the doctrines, the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy, and my own personal experience by “doing His will and knowing the doctrine, whether it be of God” confirm that what I have experienced spiritually is also being temporally and physically verified by actual experience, then for someone like you to ask such a question is like blowing into the wind. It is silliness.

“Obvious” for you means only that from your frame of reference, the LDS church isn’t true for you. I have no problem with that. You’re just fine with what you have, in that it is what you want, and it is a good church and does good things and leads you to Christ if you read the Bible and live by it.

I also have what I want, and it is a life filled with fulfillment and with personal revelation and the opportunities to change and grow by allowing the Savior and the Holy Ghost into my everyday experience to help me along life’s path.

The story of the brother of Jared, Jared, and their families is a symbolic story for all who will listen. It is symbolic of our journey through life–a life of journeying into the unknown, surrounded by storms but having protection if we allow ourselves to be guided by revelation, by the scriptures including the Bible, and by the Light of Christ who is truly the Light of the World.

 

[BartBurk]

Bart,
The story of the brother of Jared, Jared, and their families is a symbolic story for all who will listen. It is symbolic of our journey through life–a life of journeying into the unknown, surrounded by storms but having protection if we allow ourselves to be guided by revelation, by the scriptures including the Bible, and by the Light of Christ who is truly the Light of the World.

So did it ever really happen? Was there really a brother of Jared or was Joseph Smith simply inspired to write about a fictional character?

 

[GodIsGracious]

What are these Jaredite ships? Are they what the Mormons used to come to the “new” promised land?

 

[Jerusha]

The Mormons here seem to stretch further and further everyday.

If the Mormon Church were false, would you want to know?

My guess is that most Mormons don’t really want to know the obvious truth – the LDS Church is false.

I agree, they don’t want to know. I’m thinking that their real-life communities know of their missionary efforts here, and they derive great satisfaction from the positive reinforcements they receive there, and fear the consequences if they were to diverge too much from Mormon doctrine. However, there are Mormon lurkers who don’t have as much to lose.

 

[Jerusha]

What are these Jaredite ships? Are they what the Mormons used to come to the “new” promised land?

LOL No, it is the next to last “Book” of the Book of Mormon, supposedly an account of some people who came to the Americas in Tower of Babel times.

This is the version I usually use.

2think.org/hundredsheep/bom1830/ether.shtml

 

[Finrock]

I’ve been reading through a few of these Mormon threads. The Mormons here seem to stretch further and further everyday. I saw one post which asked the only question I need answered from Mormons:

If the Mormon Church were false, would you want to know?

My guess is that most Mormons don’t really want to know the obvious truth – the LDS Church is false.

Hi BartBurk! I’m glad to meet you and hope you are have a fine day today!

I’m posting only to answer what I am assuming is a sincere question from you.

I can’t speak definitively for no Latter-day Saint than myself, but my experience indicates that most Latter-day Saints aren’t struggling with this question, not because they are avoiding the truth, but because they sincerely feel that they know the truth. But, here is my answer to that question:

If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was false, then I would want to know that it is false.

You should also understand that from my perspective and likely from the perspective of most LDS, this question has been answered to our satisfaction. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true. The discussion is no longer for me a matter of determining what is true, but rather greater understanding built upon the things that I already know.

Thanks for the quesiton and hopefully my post helps you to understand, if nothing else, my perspective a little bit better.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[ParkerD]

So did it ever really happen? Was there really a brother of Jared or was Joseph Smith simply inspired to write about a fictional character?

Bart,
Was there really an Enoch, who according to Hebrews 11,
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."?

Both Enoch and the brother of Jared saw in vision the history of the world as it would unfold in the future.

I have the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost that Enoch and the brother of Jared existed, and that Abraham existed, and that the prophets I read about in the Bible and the Book of Mormon existed. I also have the “authenticity” of their words, and of the feeling behind the words which I can detect. You can’t “fake” authenticity, though authors try.

I hope you have understood my meaning here. I’ve written tiny bits of fiction, and personal essays. I know how much easier it is to write a personal essay than to write fiction, but I also know how hard it is to bring such literary qualities as symbolism, allegory, several levels of meaning, and a text that grows with you (Shakespeare did that quite well) into a piece of writing. The Book of Mormon has that quality as well as genuine authenticity on every page.

 

[GodIsGracious]

LOL No, it is the next to last “Book” of the Book of Mormon, supposedly an account of some people who came to the Americas in Tower of Babel times.

This is the version I usually use.

2think.org/hundredsheep/bom1830/ether.shtml

Ok, I guess it’s because I don’t know the order of their stories that I may be wrong in something I noticed here. I don’t feel like reading all of that in the link you posted. Thank you for posting it though.

 

[Jerusha]

I agree with you, Parker. If Solomon Spalding had had the advantage of a word processor to help him untangle his convoluted sentence structure, and correct his grammar, and Sidney Rigdon had not stolen his manuscript and tangled it further, he could have written a classic.

That is the respectful opinion of a number of people on this board.

However, that does not make it scripture.

 

[Jerusha]

Ok, I guess it’s because I don’t know the order of their stories that I may be wrong in something I noticed here. I don’t feel like reading all of that in the link you posted. Thank you for posting it though.

Yeah, even though it is the next to last in the book as published, it supposedly happened long before the rest.

 

[ParkerD]

Jerusha,
In answer to your inference, my wife knows I have enjoyed trying to explain our religious beliefs in this forum to clarify misunderstandings that are so prevalent in the world, and my friend whom I had written an email to about Paul’s question knows, but otherwise I am here on my own and no one else knows about my involvement here.

Also, if the first time I came onto this website, I had not seen wrong information from the get-go, I would never have “wandered around the website” and found out that I could help clarify the misunderstandings. Peace to all, and have a good day.

 

[Jerusha]

Given your genuineness, I believe that statement. However, I do believe that my statement applies to a few others.

 

[ParkerD]

I agree with you, Parker. If Solomon Spalding had had the advantage of a word processor to help him untangle his convoluted sentence structure, and correct his grammar, and Sidney Rigdon had not stolen his manuscript and tangled it further, he could have written a classic.

That is the respectful opinion of a number of people on this board.

However, that does not make it scripture.

Spalding’s writing reminds me of a bad version of James F. Cooper, whose writing I never liked when I read one paragraph and thought, “this is contrived.”

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Why is it that ex-Mormons are so vehemently opposed to the Mormon Church? Why can’t they just let well enough alone? I don’t think any other religion has this kind of reaction from it’s ex-members. Most people just leave, and don’t think much about it any more. But ex-Mormons seem obsessed with their former Church, they seem bent on destroying it. It’s like they can’t let go.

 

[Jerusha]

Spalding’s writing reminds me of a bad version of James F. Cooper, whose writing I never liked when I read one paragraph and thought, “this is contrived.”

I interpret that with many layers.

 

[Catholic20064]

Why is it that ex-Mormons are so vehemently opposed to the Mormon Church? Why can’t they just let well enough alone? I don’t think any other religion has this kind of reaction from it’s ex-members. Most people just leave, and don’t think much about it any more. But ex-Mormons seem obsessed with their former Church, they seem bent on destroying it. It’s like they can’t let go.

All the current Mormons have to do is either agree they are wrong or quit posting here and these threads will get much shorter. If a Mormon posts something the Catholics are supposed to just ignore it? Mormons are nice people, but that doesn’t mean we can’t express our disagreements with their point of view. And your comment above is exactly what a Mormon would say (hint, hint). You do understand the Catholic Church has determined the Mormon Church is not Christian don’t you?

 

[Finrock]

I agree, they don’t want to know.

Hello Jerusha, and a good day to you! I’m happy and hope that you feel the same.

I know from my experience, most Mormons want to know the truth. Either as converts or as people born within the church all eventually need to gain their own testimony of the truth. I know that I enstill this in to my children, constantly encouraging them to find out for themselves.

I remember a recent dialogue I had during family scripture study with my children. I asked all of my children, how do they know that God lives? How do they know that the Book of Mormon is true? And so forth… Invariably, they would say, “Because the Church says it.” I then countered, “How do you know the Church isn’t wrong.” And, they all pretty much answered, “Because you have told us it isn’t wrong.” I again countered, “How do you know I’m not wrong or what if I’m lying to you?” In the midst of, “You wouldn’t lie daddy” or “I don’t know”, I finally revealed my point to them, that even though it isn’t bad to believe and trust your parents or church leaders, you should confirm the answers to these questions yourself. I encouraged them to study and pray about these things and trust the whisperings of the Holy Spirit, who will direct them to all truth. I want them to know, for themselves, what is true. I don’t believe I am unique in the Mormon community.

I’m thinking that their real-life communities know of their missionary efforts here, and they derive great satisfaction from the positive reinforcements they receive there, and fear the consequences if they were to diverge too much from Mormon doctrine. However, there are Mormon lurkers who don’t have as much to lose.

I can tell you that this statement doesn’t apply to me in any way. I’m thinking it is unlikely that it applies to any of my LDS brothers and sisters here. But, how could I truly know? I can’t.

Be well, Jerusha!

Kind Regards,
Finrock