Book of Mormon foolishness--Jaredite ships

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For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face-to-face: now I know in part: but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known. (I Corinthians 13:9-12)
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Have a nice day.
 
PaulDupre said:
The word tapir is NOT in the BOM. The tapir is a known animal. Have you ever read the Book of Mormon? I suspect not.

Perhaps what you are thinking of are the words curelom and cumom, one or the other of which BOM apologists have speculated was a tapir.

You should not defend something you know nothing about.
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Oh yea, you are right. I suppose that I was tired when I posted my post. However, it is wonderful that you are so understanding. Are catholics like yourself always so understanding? :confused:
 
ParkerD said:
Mormon “Pro”,
I am fine with your post. It illustrates my point, in two ways. BH Roberts was a deep thinker, and was not content to accept non-studied explanations, so he wrote a long book about his own deliberations. I haven’t read his book, nor do I care to do so. But I have read some of Ethan Smith’s writing, and it is just fine–so what if he thought the house of Israel could have been “scattered” to the New World. Anyone reading the Bible could figure that out. Anyone, anytime after it was available for the reading. The Old Testament is full of allusions to a scattering of the house of Israel to all parts of the world. It was commonly understood prophecy.

So what of the Biblical verses in the Book of Mormon? I’m glad those passages are exactly as they are to allow people who want to have an excuse to not do serious thinking about the entire text and its genuinity, sincerity, and authenticity of language and content, will have their excuse and can go on their way. It’s a gift to them by Joseph Smith or Mormon: you’re off the hook, you have a benign excuse that works for you.😉
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Perhaps in you rush to state you are just fine with my post you failed to read past the first few lines. My point is not just that Joseph Smith often quoted from the Bible word for word, but also that he re-wrote the Bible in what mormons call the Joseph Smith translation (JST) In re-writing the Bible he forgot he put the so-called corrupted version of the King James in the BOM WORD FOR WORD. In the JST he corrected these verses showing his so-called translation of the BOM was not possibly inspired or even in line with his later beliefs because it still contained the so-called corrupted King James vs WORD FOR WORD. examples of his slip ups
Original (Smith claimed was flawed) Matt 6:38 : “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
JST(Joseph Smith Translation) of Matt. 6:38 : “Wherefore, seek not the things of this world but seek ye first to build up the kingdom of God, and to establish his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.”
3Nephi 13:33 : " But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you." (same as flawed)​

Original (flawed?)Matt 7:2,3 “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with that measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.”
Jst Matt. 7:2,3 : “…Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment. for with what judgement ye shall judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.”
3Nephi 14 1&2 : " Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." (same as flawed?)​

Original (flawed) Matt: 6:9-15 “After this manner therefore pray ye: Our father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.”
JST Matt.6:9-15 : “Therefore after this manner shall ye pray, saying. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is done in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And suffer us not to be led into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever, Amen.”
3Nephi 13:9-13 : “After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.” Obviously Joseph copied parts of the Book of Mormon from the Bible and the reality that Joseph was a fraud is further proved by his failure to add the so-called “plain and precious parts” to his book of Mormon, instead he added what he called the corrupted parts to his BOM. To say the least Joseph was “uninspired” when he wrote the Book of Mormon… And is an easily proved fraud to any who take a closer look and are honest.
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
Why is it that ex-Mormons are so vehemently opposed to the Mormon Church? Why can’t they just let well enough alone? I don’t think any other religion has this kind of reaction from it’s ex-members. Most people just leave, and don’t think much about it any more. But ex-Mormons seem obsessed with their former Church, they seem bent on destroying it. It’s like they can’t let go.:confused:
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Let ex-mormons speak for themselves. Many of us fill it is a part of our ministry to help mormons escape from the dangerous and depressing mormon church. Realize that Utah leads the nation in antidepressant use year after year. False religion leaves people hopeless and mormonism has led many of it’s members to commit murder of their own children by it’s liberal abortion policies. Many of these women we have worked with suffer from extreme post abortion syndrome. Mormonism is not a harmless religion, it is catastrophic to many within it. Also, we are winning as these presidents of your church have openly admitted; ”The LDS church Newspaper Deseret Morning News Published: Thursday, Feb. 14, 2008 reported: “Late President Gordon B. Hinckley once told the Quorum of the Twelve, “Brethren, when my life is finished and the final services are concluding, I am going to rise up as I go by, look each of you in the eye and say, 'How are we doing on retention?”’ The new President of the LDS church has stated that retention of members will be his primary focus. Retention has become a real focus. For you don’t need an abacus to know many members have left the building.
What happened to them?”
In the United States, Mormons are departing from the faith as fast as converts are joining. Converts rarely remain active in the Mormon Church. Graphing activity: When the Graduate Center of the City University of New York conducted an American Religious Identification Survey in 2001, it discovered that about the same number of people said they had joined the LDS Church as said they had left it. The CUNY survey reported the church’s net growth was zero percent.
What is the official Mormon reaction to the articles stating that there are significantly less than 12 million members worldwide? This is from a Salt Lake Tribune article Sep. 1st, 2005 quoting Merrill Bateman, a Mormon Seventy
“…He agreed the LDS Church’s worldwide membership, reported at 12 million, includes many who no longer consider themselves Mormon, but he disagreed with researchers who estimated active Mormons equal only 4 million.
Point: do not be afraid to aggressively help your friends see the truth about Mormonism. Many have left and many more will leave, it is only a matter of someone telling the truth to those who are honest enough to hear it.
 
mormonpro said:
Perhaps in you rush to state you are just fine with my post you failed to read past the first few lines. My point is not just that Joseph Smith often quoted from the Bible word for word, but also that he re-wrote the Bible in what mormons call the Joseph Smith translation (JST) In re-writing the Bible he forgot he put the so-called corrupted version of the King James in the BOM WORD FOR WORD. In the JST he corrected these verses showing his so-called translation of the BOM was not possibly inspired or even in line with his later beliefs because it still contained the so-called corrupted King James vs WORD FOR WORD…
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Read this:

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_Translation_and_the_Book_of_Mormon

Why is the JST different from the Book of Mormon?
Main article: Joseph Smith Translation as a restoration of the original Bible text
The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible is not, as some members have presumed, simply a restoration of lost Biblical text or an improvement on the translation of known text. Rather, the JST also involves harmonization of doctrinal concepts, commentary and elaboration on the Biblical text, and explanations to clarify points of importance to the modern reader. (See main article on the nature of the JST for a more detailed discussion.)

Thus, the Book of Mormon is likely a relatively “tight” translation of the Nephite records, with the focus on the important differences between the Nephite textual tradition and the Masoretic text.

By contrast, the JST comes from a more prophetically mature and sophisticated Joseph Smith, and provides doctrinal expansion based upon additional revelation, experience, and understanding.

It is important to remember that Joseph did not consider one ‘translation’ of anything to be perfect or ‘the final word.’ Joseph had indicated that Moroni quoted Malachi to him using different wording than the KJV (See Joseph Smith History 1:36–39). However, when Joseph quoted the same passage years later in a discussion about vicarious baptism for the dead, he said:

I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding clink of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other-and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism. for the dead.(D&C 128:18.)
Thus, to Joseph, the adequacy of a translation depended upon the uses to which a given text will be employed. For one discussion, the KJV was adequate; for others, not. A key element of LDS theology is that living prophets are the primary instrument through which God continues to give knowledge and understanding to his children. Scriptures are neither inerrant, nor somehow “perfect,” but are instead produced by fallible mortals. Despite this, because of current prophets and the revelation granted each individual, the writings of past prophets are sufficient to teach the principles essential for salvation. Additional revelation is sought and received as required.

An Example
There is a great example of this kind of difference in the Lord’s prayer. Compare the following:

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil (Book of Mormon).
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil (KJV Bible).
And suffer us not to be led into temptation, but deliver us from evil (JST Bible).
The JST changes the statement to passive voice whereas the KJV Bible and the Book of Mormon are in active voice. According to E. W. Bullinger, this particular scripture contains a Hebraism, namely, “active verbs were used by the Hebrews to express not the doing of the thing, but the permission of the thing which the agent is said do.” Consequently, Bullinger interprets the passage this way: “Lead us not (i.e., suffer us not to be led) into temptation.” [7]

Adam Clarke agrees with Bullinger. He wrote this scripture means “‘Bring not in,’ or ‘lead us not into.’ (This is a mere Hebraism. God is said to do a thing which He only permits or suffers to be done).” [8]

In Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament we read the same interpretation. “This phrase then must be used in the sense of permitting. Do not suffer us or permit us, to be tempted to sin. In this it is implied that God 'has such control over us and the tempter, as to save us from it if we call on him.” [9]

When properly considered, this passage is an example of where the JST reading and the KJV/Book of Mormon are both correct. The KJV and Book of Mormon are literal interpretations while the JST is an interpretive translation that is also correct.
 
mormonpro said:
False religion leaves people hopeless and mormonism has led many of it’s members to commit murder of their own children by it’s liberal abortion policies. Many of these women we have worked with suffer from extreme post abortion syndrome.
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I hate to be a party pooper here but more catholics commit abortions than mormons. And I am not referring to the fact that there are more catholics in the world. But per capita catholics commit more abortions. Is it a false religion?
 
mormonpro said:
Let ex-mormons speak for themselves. Many of us fill it is a part of our ministry to help mormons escape from the dangerous and depressing mormon church. Realize that Utah leads the nation in antidepressant use year after year. What happened to them?"
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Read this:

en.fairmormon.org/Suicide_rate_among_Mormons

en.fairmormon.org/LDS_use_of_antidepressants

Not to be a party pooper here but did you know that Lithuania leads Europe in Suicide? And lithuania is a catholic country. Is catholicism a false religion that leads people to despair? :confused::confused:

I hope not…but using your logic…it would seem so.
 
Mormon Pro,
I hadn’t been inclined to respond about the differences in text, because from the frame of mind you express, I felt it was a waste of my time. Why Me has given a great response. (Thanks).

If you are helping people who need help, whatever the reason and whatever you ascribe as the reason or however they express themselves about their reasons, then I think that’s great. I wish you well in helping the people you help. But I’m not bothered by the generalizations you offer in many of your posts that jump to wrong conclusions. I hope the help you offer is in a different vein than that.

As I’ve said before and since this thread is about the Jaredites, the Book of Mormon presents many truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ, including the truth that humankind choose between light and darkness. I choose light, including the opportunity to choose “more light until the perfect day.” Some choose differently than that, for many reasons. The Bible can get them there, under the influence and guidance of the Holy Ghost and based on their desires. The Book of Mormon can also help greatly, for those who choose to read it and to ponder its teachings and its symbolism about life.
 
Not to be a party pooper here but did you know that Lithuania leads Europe in Suicide? And lithuania is a catholic country. Is catholicism a false religion that leads people to despair?
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As I have said before, and you appear to have ignored, there are many problems in the ex-Soviet Block countries. They are a legacy of the Soviet regime. Just as the depression and suicide problems in the Western mountain states are a legacy of the authoritarianism of Mormonism.
 
mormonpro said:
Let ex-mormons speak for themselves. Many of us fill it is a part of our ministry to help mormons escape from the dangerous and depressing mormon church. Realize that Utah leads the nation in antidepressant use year after year. False religion leaves people hopeless and mormonism has led many of it’s members to commit murder of their own children by it’s liberal abortion policies. Many of these women we have worked with suffer from extreme post abortion syndrome. Mormonism is not a harmless religion, it is catastrophic to many within it. Also, we are winning as these presidents of your church have openly admitted; ”The LDS church Newspaper Deseret Morning News Published: Thursday, Feb. 14, 2008 reported: "Late President Gordon B. Hinckley once told the Quorum of the Twelve, “Brethren, when my life is finished and the final services are concluding, I am going to rise up as I go by, look each of you in the eye and say, 'How are we doing on retention?”’ The new President of the LDS church has stated that retention of members will be his primary focus. Retention has become a real focus.
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Not to be a party pooper again but do you know what percentage of French catholics attend church? Or the percentage of Irish that attend church? Or Italians? I think that it is very low in those european countries. Most religious faiths have retention problems these days. It is the secular world making inroads in church attendance. Now for catholics it is a sin not to attend Mass and Masses of Obligation. That may bring some catholics out for Mass.
 
Jerusha said:
As I have said before, and you appear to have ignored, there are many problems in the ex-Soviet Block countries. They are a legacy of the Soviet regime. Just as the depression and suicide problems in the Western mountain states are a legacy of the authoritarianism of Mormonism.
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Well having spent some time in lithuania, I can say that you are wrong. The problem is rather simple. The economic upheaval caused many people to dispair and kill themselves and it is still happening. Also, Lithuania is one of the worst countries to be a child in Europe. It is not the legacy of soviet times but the terrible policies of past governments. But still where was the catholic church in all this? And why didn’t the faith keep people from killing themselves and create the family as a domestic church? Now I don’t blame catholicism but using mormonpro’s post, I can do it.

insightnewstv.com/d74/

angelfire.com/tx/LABAS/2000/jan/suicide.html
 
ParkerD said:
Mormon Pro,
I hadn’t been inclined to respond about the differences in text, because from the frame of mind you express, I felt it was a waste of my time. Why Me has given a great response. (Thanks).
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Here is another one for you:

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_Translation_as_a_restoration_of_the_original_Bible_text

fairlds.org/Bible/Joseph_Smith_and_Matthew_6_13.html

And then use your own knowledge too. You are a lds apologist in the making.

Mormons have explanations to most of the critics arguments. In the future, go to FAIR and use the search engine at FAIR. 🙂
 
why_me said:
But still where was the catholic church in all this? And why didn’t the faith keep people from killing themselves and create the family as a domestic church? Now I don’t blame catholicism but using mormonpro’s post, I can do it.
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Perhaps you should read up on the history of the Eastern churches during the Soviet era. The Church was decimated as was the Faith of the people. What was left was turned into a State institution. The Eastern churches of the Soviet Union still struggle to come back. But they are not dead!

Meanwhile, Mormons and other cults take advantage of the people who are weak in their faith.
 
why_me said:
Oh yea, you are right. I suppose that I was tired when I posted my post. However, it is wonderful that you are so understanding. Are catholics like yourself always so understanding? :confused:
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Only when confronting liars.
 
Hi, all,
Before this thread dies away, I thought it would be well to add a post about some of the major themes from the book of Ether. I had already told of one, the journey of life to a “promised land”–ultimately heaven, but also the fulfilling of the promises Christ offers during this life of feelings of peace, contentment, joy–in short, the fruits of the gospel. But this journey is fraught with challenges and “going into the unknown”, using the light of Christ to find our way. It is written in Hebrews 11 that Abraham “looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.” The book of Ether has this same theme in the journey to the promised land.

Another theme is shown when the Jaredites want a king when they know the brother of Jared is going to die. The brother of Jared warns against the idea, but does not attempt to force his opinion on them. The idea of wanting a king seems to manifest a desire to relinquish self-rule and governance by the voice of the people, thus letting the king decide what is best for the people and minimizing the need for self-rule which eventually leads to kings who rule with unrighteous authority. The ultimate consequence in the book is that it shows conflicts between people seeking for power over others, leading to the downfall of the civilization.

Another theme is about what faith and hope are, particularly in Ether 12. That chapter also talks about the need for humility, and that human weaknesses are partly given to us so that we may rely on Jesus Christ in humility and faith. Perhaps some few among the many will want to read the book of Ether as a source of insight and strength for one’s own personal journey through mortal life. Peace to all, through seeking Jesus, the light of the world and the healer of our souls.
 
Sunstone said:
I don’t believe the Book of Mormon presents a literal history.
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Do you think you would be allowed to preach that from the pulpit of a Mormon Church? Or even write about it publicly? At some point I realized I wouldn’t be allowed to publicly express that view and wound up leaving the LDS Church.
 
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