Born again/Born from above

[Jerry_Marino]

Jesus said, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

if a thread has been started on this subject please let me know, i looked but did not find.

how does a person be born from above?

 

[Omyo12]

This article should answer your question

catholic.com/library/Born_Again_in_Baptism.asp

Peace be with you.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

don’t mean nothing to me, if one who is saved is born of God how can it be that water baptism is what is needed along with the Spirit to born from above?

so by the catholic definition of born again baptism is the key?

what do you say of the millions who were baptized as infants but never truly followed Christ?

God bless.

 

[Omyo12]

Well, baptism is the Sacrament we need to receive the Holy Spirit and be in the New Covenant (much like circumcisions were for the Jews to be in the Old Covenant)

It is then during the Rite of Confirmation when one truly receives the Holy Spirit as they themselves renew their Baptismal vows.

what do you say of the millions who were baptized as infants but never truly followed Christ?

That’s their choice. Their baptism alone does not guarantee them a ticket to Heaven.

Unlike some protestant denominations who believe in “believer baptism” and that once saved, always saved, we believe a person can lose their salvation through unrepentant sins, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and rejection of God.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

you contradict yourself with your statement on baptism and i quote: "Well, baptism is the Sacrament we need to receive the Holy Spirit and be in the New Covenant (much like circumcisions were for the Jews to be in the Old Covenant)

It is then during the Rite of Confirmation when one truly receives the Holy Spirit as they themselves renew their Baptismal vows."

anyhow we know that circumcision did not do anything to the Jews other than being clean in their private parts. **But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. ** romans 2:29

 

[Omyo12]

you contradict yourself with your statement on baptism and i quote: "Well, baptism is the Sacrament we need to receive the Holy Spirit and be in the New Covenant (much like circumcisions were for the Jews to be in the Old Covenant)

It is then during the Rite of Confirmation when one truly receives the Holy Spirit as they themselves renew their Baptismal vows."

How is that a contradiction? I’ll try to explain better:

When baptized, we are cleansed of original sin and are allowed to enter the New Covenant. After baptism, we have the ability to be strengthened by the Holy Spirit. However it is not until Confirmation when we confirm our faith in Christ that we are actually strengthened by the Holy Spirit. A baby cannot confirm his or her faith, however they can be cleansed of their sin.

A person needs to be baptized before being confirmed. An unbaptized person cannot be confirmed.

An adult converting to Catholicism receives all these Sacraments along with the Eucharist the same day since they are of age to confirm their faith.

anyhow we know that circumcision did not do anything to the Jews other than being clean in their private parts. **But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. ** romans 2:29

Umm… no… in the Old Testament, circumcision was required to enter the covenant with God… just like baptism is required to enter the new covenant.

Genesis 17
11 Circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and that shall be the mark of the covenant between you and me. 12 Throughout the ages, every male among you, when he is eight days old, shall be circumcised, including houseborn slaves and those acquired with money from any foreigner who is not of your blood. 13 Yes, both the houseborn slaves and those acquired with money must be circumcised. Thus my covenant shall be in your flesh as an everlasting pact. 14 If a male is uncircumcised, that is, if the flesh of his foreskin has not been cut away, such a one shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

God almost killed Moses because he didn’t circumcise his kid!!!

Exodus 4
24 On the journey, at a place where they spent the night, the LORD came upon Moses and would have killed him. 25 But Zipporah took a piece of flint and cut off her son’s foreskin and, touching his person, she said, “You are a husband of blood to me.” 26 Then God let Moses go. At that time she said, “A husband of blood,” in regard to the circumcision.

I absolutely love Romans 2:17-29 because St. Paul argues that just because you’re circumcised doesn’t mean you can do whatever you want. One must not only believe the Law but also live by it. This isn’t meant to say circumcisions have no value… He states right after that:

Romans 3
1 What advantage is there then in being a Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much, in ever respect. [For] in the first place, they were entrusted with the utterance of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their infidelity nullify the fidelity of God? 4 Of course not! God must be true, though every man is a liar, 2 as it is written: “That you may be justified in your words, and conquer when you are judged.”

 

[mgull]

don’t mean nothing to me

 

[Jerry_Marino]

was naaman healed by the water of jordan?

 

[Todd_Easton]

was naaman healed by the water of jordan?

It would probably be better to say that God healed Naaman with the water of the Jordan, not because of any natural healing property of the water of the Jordan, but simply because God had promised, through His prophet Elisha, that, if Naaman dipped himself in the water of the Jordan seven times, he would be healed, and so he was. (2 Kings 5)

God used a material thing (the water of the Jordan) to bring grace to a soul (physical healing and faith to Naaman).

In the same way, God uses the water of baptism to bring the grace of spiritual regeneration to a soul. This spiritual rebirth does not occur because of any natural healing property of the water of baptism but simply because God has promised, through Jesus Christ and His Apostles, that, if anyone is baptized in water in His Name, that person will be spiritually born again: his past personal sins and his share in Adam’s sin (Original Sin) will be forgiven and he will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (See Acts 2:38)

 

[budgie2]

I think it’s a strange thing to say that I’m born again of water and the holy spirit although it reminds me of born again Christians. I think we’re taught that in baptism we start a new life in Christ. I do not know why we have to be born of water although it might remind us of the breaking of the waters prior to giving birth. So for somebody who has led a sinful life it gives them a totally new start and has positive symbolism. It might also link up with the Jewish religion and belief that a person is born a Jew. Jews had to have Jewish birth right. In Christianity, we are given a birth right to the kingdom of heaven through baptism. We are also reborn as kings.

 

[SHW]

I think it’s a strange thing to say that I’m born again of water and the holy spirit although it reminds me of born again Christians. I think we’re taught that in baptism we start a new life in Christ. I do not know why we have to be born of water although it might remind us of the breaking of the waters prior to giving birth. So for somebody who has led a sinful life it gives them a totally new start and has positive symbolism. It might also link up with the Jewish religion and belief that a person is born a Jew. Jews had to have Jewish birth right. In Christianity, we are given a birth right to the kingdom of heaven through baptism. We are also reborn as kings.

**
1 Peter 3:20-22** who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him."

We receive this “good conscience toward God” through Baptism since Baptism removes Original Sin from our souls. We are no longer enemies of God because the waters of Baptism (washing of water by the word) justifies us. Ephesians 5:26] Baptism now saves us. We receive a “good conscience toward God” when we are baptized because the Holy Spirit gives us sanctifying grace through this Sacrament. Ephesians 4:7]

Romans 5:10 “For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

**
Romans 5:12-19** “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—…15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”

Jesus applies the merits of His Blood Sacrifice to our souls through Baptism and it washes away our sins and makes us friends of God. John 15:14] Only righteous persons are friends of God. James 2:23] Adam’s sin made us enemies of God and Jesus’ Sacrifice makes us friends when we believe and are baptized. Mark 16:16]

Baptism spiritually regenerates us. We are “made new” spiritually, but not physically. This “spiritual regeneration” is what is meant by being “born again.” Titus 3:5]

We are enemies of God until we are baptized. Jesus uses Baptism to make us His disciples under His New Covenant. Matthew 28:19]

 

[Jerry_Marino]

well the water did not heal the man just like the water did not make the blind man see, it was the word of God that healed.

the baptismal waters is a symbol of ones’ salvation cause if it were as you all say then there are many people reborn as infants but as you know it is an act of faith.

God bless

 

[Omyo12]

well the water did not heal the man just like the water did not make the blind man see, it was the word of God that healed.

The water doesn’t heal, God does through the water.

the baptismal waters is a symbol of ones’ salvation…

While water itself doesn’t save, it is required to enter the New Covenant.

John 3:5

Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.”

When we are baptized as children, we are born anew and enter the New Covenant. When a Jewish boy was born, his circumcision at 8 days old allowed him to enter the Old Covenant.

Baptism is like a perfected circumcision and circumcisions were required to enter the Old Covenant.

Genesis 17

11 Circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and that shall be the mark of the covenant between you and me. 12 Throughout the ages, every male among you, when he is eight days old, shall be circumcised, including houseborn slaves and those acquired with money from any foreigner who is not of your blood. 13 Yes, both the houseborn slaves and those acquired with money must be circumcised. Thus my covenant shall be in your flesh as an everlasting pact. 14 If a male is uncircumcised, that is, if the flesh of his foreskin has not been cut away, such a one shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.

However, later in life, if we fall away from God we can lose our salvation like Esau lost his birthright to Jacob.

Like Adam, we too have free will and we have the ability to walk away.

…cause if it were as you all say then there are many people reborn as infants but as you know it is an act of faith.

God bless

It is the faith we are born into. However, it is a faith that we must keep in order to be saved.

 

[rwoehmke]

Reading through the New Testament in particular, in almost every instance of Jesus’s healings and miracles there is a material element; Water, mud, spittle, the fringe of his garment, etc. In Acts their were outward signs or symbols also, Peter’s shadow for example.In the seven sacraments established by Christ for use by his Church, so too, every sacrament has an outward sign. A material thing like water, oil, bread and wine, laying on of hands etc. Of course it is not the sign that heals, but Jesus who does so through them.

As for being born again by water and the Holy Spirit. It is in Baptism that we are made adopted children of God(through sanctifying grace which justifies us) and receive the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit along with his seven gifts(see Isaiah Chapter 11). In Confirmation, it is not us confirming our acceptance of Christianity as is erroneously accepted today as that is what some of the other denominations believe, but it is an outpouring of new gifts that strengthens us to take our adult Faith and preach it to those who do not yet believe. In addition those seven gifts from Isaiah are also renewed and strengthened to help us deal with the more difficult demands of living as a adult Christian.

 

[SHW]

Reading through the New Testament in particular, in almost every instance of Jesus’s healings and miracles there is a material element; Water, mud, spittle, the fringe of his garment, etc. In Acts their were outward signs or symbols also, Peter’s shadow for example.In the seven sacraments established by Christ for use by his Church, so too, every sacrament has an outward sign. A material thing like water, oil, bread and wine, laying on of hands etc. Of course it is not the sign that heals, but Jesus who does so through them.

As for being born again by water and the Holy Spirit. It is in Baptism that we are made adopted children of God(through sanctifying grace which justifies us) and receive the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit along with his seven gifts(see Isaiah Chapter 11). In Confirmation, it is not us confirming our acceptance of Christianity as is erroneously accepted today as that is what some of the other denominations believe, but it is an outpouring of new gifts that strengthens us to take our adult Faith and preach it to those who do not yet believe. In addition those seven gifts from Isaiah are also renewed and strengthened to help us deal with the more difficult demands of living as a adult Christian.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

if in baptism one is reborn, given new life how can so many who have been baptized in water not be saved?

how they be of the world?

God bless.

 

[Omyo12]

if in baptism one is reborn, given new life how can so many who have been baptized in water not be saved?

how they be of the world?

God bless.

Keep in mind that Catholic baptisms are different than so-called “believer baptisms” from the Anabaptist tradition.

The water, by the power of God, washes away our original sin.

Baptism does NOT guarantee eternal salvation.

When baptized, we are born anew in Christ and receive the “inheritance” of salvation.
However, like Esau, we can lose our inheritance during life.

 

[tm30]

well the water did not heal the man just like the water did not make the blind man see, it was the word of God that healed.

the baptismal waters is a symbol of ones’ salvation cause if it were as you all say then there are many people reborn as infants but as you know it is an act of faith.

God bless

Didn’t you read the Gospel story of Jesus healing the cripple, specifically forgiving his sins, because of the faith of those who brought him there?

The parents and godparents bring the child to Jesus for the ultimate healing/forgiveness of Original Sin. Like the cripple, it does not require an act of faith of the person being regenerated, but an act of faith of those surrounding the child. This is black and white Scripture. Contradict the efficacy of infant baptism and you contradict Christ’s own clearly and loudly demonstrated prerogative to forgive by proxy.

 

[SHW]

Didn’t you read the Gospel story of Jesus healing the cripple, specifically forgiving his sins, because of the faith of those who brought him there?

The parents and godparents bring the child to Jesus for the ultimate healing/forgiveness of Original Sin. Like the cripple, it does not require an act of faith of the person being regenerated, but an act of faith of those surrounding the child. This is black and white Scripture. Contradict the efficacy of infant baptism and you contradict Christ’s own clearly and loudly demonstrated prerogative to forgive by proxy.

And the parents and godparents “believe” (have faith) for the child and literally state that they “reject Satan” in the child’s place.

According to the Roman Ritual, at present in use, three questions are to be addressed to the person to be baptized, as follows: “Dost thou renounce Satan? and all his works? and all his pomps?” To each of these interrogation the person, or the sponsor in his name, replies: “I do renounce”. The practice of demanding and making this formal renunciation seems to go back to the very beginnings of organized Christian worship.

from: newadvent.org/cathen/02275a.htm

The infant now, through its sponsors, makes a declaration of faith and asks for baptism.

The priest, having meantime changed his violet stole for a white one, then administers the threefold ablution, making the sign of the cross three times with the stream of water he pours on the head of the child, saying at the same time: “N___, I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.” The sponsors during the ablution either hold the child or at least touch it. If the baptism be given by immersion, the priest dips the back part of the head three times into the water in the form of a cross, pronouncing the sacramental words. The crown of the child’s head is now anointed with chrism, “to give him to understand that from that day he is united as a member to Christ, his head, and engrafted on His body; and therefore he is called a Christian from Christ, but Christ from chrism” (Catech.). A white veil is now put on the infant’s head with the words: “Receive this white garment, which mayest thou carry without stain before the judgment seat of Our Lord Jesus Christ, that thou mayest have eternal life. Amen.” Then a lighted candle is placed in the catechumen’s hand, the priest saying: “Receive this burning light, and keep thy baptism so as to be without blame. Observe the commandments of God; that, when Our Lord shall come to His nuptials, thou mayest meet Him together with all the Saints and mayest have life everlasting, and live for ever and ever. Amen.” The new Christian is then bidden to go in peace.

from: newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#XVI

 

[Jerry_Marino]

well if the water is one of the ingredients for rebirth, i just can’t see how it refers to the baptismal waters.

naaman was told to go dip into the jordan 7 times but it was not the water that healed him and the blind man was told by Jesus to go wash in the pool but it was not the water that gave him sight, was it?