Born again/Born from above

[SteveGC]

well if the water is one of the ingredients for rebirth, i just can’t see how it refers to the baptismal waters.

naaman was told to go dip into the jordan 7 times but it was not the water that healed him and the blind man was told by Jesus to go wash in the pool but it was not the water that gave him sight, was it?

Water is an instrument of transference, Jerry. In and of itself it has no power to do anything, neither heal nor save. But it is the material God chose to use, among many other materials throughout salvation history, to impart His grace to us. All covenants have had signs, some big, some small, some of nature, some of material. Water (poured onto the faithful in the name of the triune God) is the sign of the new covenant, and it is as necessary as any other covenantal sign has been throughout the ages.

 

[SHW]

well if the water is one of the ingredients for rebirth, i just can’t see how it refers to the baptismal waters.

naaman was told to go dip into the jordan 7 times but it was not the water that healed him and the blind man was told by Jesus to go wash in the pool but it was not the water that gave him sight, was it?

SteveGC already explained this , but I want to add that there are three types of Baptism in the Bible.

John the Baptist preached a water baptism for repentance. [Mark 1:4]

This was to prepare the people for Jesus’ water baptism for remission of sins. Two different types of water baptism. One was a precursor for the other, or in other words, the first was used as a preparation for the second type, which was the most important. [Acts 2:38] The Holy Spirit moves into our souls as a result of the Sacrament of Baptism. He sanctifies us.

There is also a Baptism of fire which is what we call the Sacrament of Confirmation. Acts 2:2-4 The Holy Spirit gives us even more graces to help us live good Christian lives.

 

[WesleyF]

“But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.” (1 Cor 15:46)

I am curious whether this verse can be used to imply the idea of a sacrament.

 

[SteveGC]

“But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.” (1 Cor 15:46)

I am curious whether this verse can be used to imply the idea of a sacrament.

I think the whole notion of Creation can be used to imply sacraments. This is a physical world, with natural, physical materials making up much of that which we interact with. And we are physical beings as well as spiritual ones. We are neither one exclusively. So it is with sacraments, neither is exclusively physical or spiritual. The two natures work in harmony to embody the Grace of God. This makes Calvinistic belief of total depravity and wickedness of material things such a tragic and unfortunate belief, and leads one to believe that anything that would include the physical in God’s plan must be erroneous, when just the opposite is true. God knows we relate to both of our natures, and He therefore uses both throughout history to communicate to us.

One of the things (among many) that drew me to Catholicism was the “physicality” of the faith. Realizing how God works with our entire bodies, senses and experiences had a profound effect on the revelation to me that The Church is 100% of God.

 

[tm30]

Water is an instrument of transference, Jerry. In and of itself it has no power to do anything, neither heal nor save. But it is the material God chose to use, among many other materials throughout salvation history, to impart His grace to us. All covenants have had signs, some big, some small, some of nature, some of material. Water (poured onto the faithful in the name of the triune God) is the sign of the new covenant, and it is as necessary as any other covenantal sign has been throughout the ages.

People forget that God also chose the material of human nature to impart His grace as the Incarnation. So denying the efficacy of the baptismal waters as the conduit of regenerative grace leads down the troublesome path that God took on human flesh as an act of pure vanity and nothing more.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

well my friends thanks for the lesson on baptism, i will now take a look at what the water signifies when spoken in the scriptures.

Jesus said, “Verily, verily I say unto thee, unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” John 3:5

back in John 1:13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

so to born again it must be of water and of spirit but not of man but of God, so to me i would have to lean away from the baptismal waters because that would fall under the category of the will of man. in catholicism it is the will of the parents who take their child to be baptized this is not the will of God. my friends if one is born again by the baptismal waters then how can one not be in the will of God?

i understand that catholics and others believe that baptism by water washes away sins but i would have to differ with you on what washes away sins. this what our LORD says on the matter found in Matthew 26:28 for this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

in the bible it is the blood that atones for our sins not water but what is the water that Jesus speaks of here?

i brought up to stories from the bible naaman and the blind man where water was used but what is it’s significance?

like naaman said are there not great rivers in damascus?

well it had nothing to do with the river jordan nor how many times he dipped into the water but rather on the WORD of GOD.

same applies to the blind man who went to the pool and washed, he believed and was obedient in his ACT of faith where though the pharisees saw the signs yet they did not believe until this day.

baptism of water the LORD said to be baptized but what comes first?
baptism or faith?

God bless.

 

[Mannyfit75]

baptism of water the LORD said to be baptized but what comes first?
baptism or faith?

God bless.

and Peter said, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”

 

[SteveGC]

well my friends thanks for the lesson on baptism, i will now take a look at what the water signifies when spoken in the scriptures.

Jesus said, “Verily, verily I say unto thee, unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” John 3:5

back in John 1:13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

so to born again it must be of water and of spirit but not of man but of God, so to me i would have to lean away from the baptismal waters because that would fall under the category of the will of man. in catholicism it is the will of the parents who take their child to be baptized this is not the will of God. my friends if one is born again by the baptismal waters then how can one not be in the will of God?

i understand that catholics and others believe that baptism by water washes away sins but i would have to differ with you on what washes away sins. this what our LORD says on the matter found in Matthew 26:28 for this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

in the bible it is the blood that atones for our sins not water but what is the water that Jesus speaks of here?

i brought up to stories from the bible naaman and the blind man where water was used but what is it’s significance?

like naaman said are there not great rivers in damascus?

well it had nothing to do with the river jordan nor how many times he dipped into the water but rather on the WORD of GOD.

same applies to the blind man who went to the pool and washed, he believed and was obedient in his ACT of faith where though the pharisees saw the signs yet they did not believe until this day.

baptism of water the LORD said to be baptized but what comes first?
baptism or faith?

God bless.

Ok, one more time, jerry.

Faith comes first. Don’t worry about how that applies to infants or the mentally handicapped just yet…rest assured, faith comes first.

Water in and of itself does nothing. When Jesus was baptized, the Spirit was unified with water to APPLY (not be the source of, but apply - that’s an important distinction you fail to get)…to APPLY the grace unto us to be “born again”. The Spirit-filled water is not the source of the forgiveness of sins…it’s the application. What’s being applied? The blood of Christ…His atonement on the Cross. Belief (faith) is important…absolutely…it has primacy. But God, ever a sacramental God, ever a material-utilizer in salvation history, chose the washing with Spirit-filled water to be the necessary application of the grace of forgiveness. Without faith, either directly from someone capable of assenting to it on their own, or indirectly - represented by a caretaker until such time they can assent to faith on their own, water baptism does not seal the Spirit within. Accompanied by faith, water baptism makes us adoptive sons and daughters of God the Father. We become a new creation…born again.

So it’s both/and, Jerry. Not either/or.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

well my friends, according to your belief, the baptismal waters is what you all think Jesus is implying here. so if this were true, a person is reborn then this person could not loose his or her salvation because of this rebirth?

you quote acts 2:38 but leave out verse 37
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, "What are we to do, my brothers?"

they were convicted when hearing the gospel, my friends.

God does the saving we don’t do nothing but respond when hearing. verse by verse:

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach), 9 for, if you confess 5 with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand. 2 Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit, 14 which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.

Now, this next one is from who you call the first catholic pope:
1 Peter 1:22 Since you have purified yourselves by obedience to the truth for sincere mutual love, love one another intensely from a (pure) heart. 23 You have been born anew, not from perishable but from imperishable seed, through the living and abiding word of God,

The new birth of Christians (1 Peter 1:23) derives from Christ, the imperishable seed or sowing that produces a new and lasting existence in those who accept the gospel (1 Peter 1:24-25), with the consequent duty of loving one another (1 Peter 1:22). [23] The living and abiding word of God: or, "the word of the living and abiding God."

My friends Jesus said, “I am the way, I am the truth, and I am the life.” The truth shall set you free!!

God Bless

 

[SteveGC]

Jerry,

appears you didn’t take time to absorb my previous post.

did you get the fact that our forgiveness of sins is ALL about Christ? That it originates and is made possible from His blood sacrifice? That it includes FAITH?

That was all in that post, Jerry. And yet you responded with yet another bugle cry to us poor Catholics to put our trust in Christ.

I don’t get you.

Going on several months now…and I don’t get you. Do you even read and absorb what anybody REALLY is saying in their posts to you? Or do you just skim over it…see the word “water”…skip the rest and reply with “believe in Christ everyone…God loves you!” ??

Frustrating to the last, my friend.

Try reading my post again…and this time, try to respond without the exhortations for me to believe and love my Lord. I’m way ahead o’ ya there.

-Steve

 

[Jerry_Marino]

well steve just tickle your fancy, i am replying to your statement. you say not to worry of the infants; i’ll leave the mentally ill out.

why not worry of the infants who later grow into adulthood and under the false pretense that their infant baptism has cleansed them from their sins.

what did Jesus say of His baptism when john did not want to do it?

Matthew 3:14 John tried to prevent him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and yet you are coming to me?” 15 Jesus said to him in reply, “Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed him.

This dialogue, peculiar to Matthew, reveals John’s awareness of Jesus’ superiority to him as the mightier one who is coming and who will baptize with the holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11). His reluctance to admit Jesus among the sinners whom he is baptizing with water is overcome by Jesus’ response. To fulfill all righteousness: in this gospel to fulfill usually refers to fulfillment of prophecy, and righteousness to moral conduct in conformity with God’s will. Here, however, as in Matthew 5:6; 6:33, righteousness seems to mean the saving activity of God. To fulfill all righteousness is to submit to the plan of God for the salvation of the human race. This involves Jesus’ identification with sinners; hence the propriety of his accepting John’s baptism.

in the prior verse to this john was telling the people of the coming of Christ who would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. now you know steve from the other thread what paul writes in ephesians 1:13-14 of when we receive the Holy Spirit that is our baptism that Christ gives us.

in the baptism above Jesus identifies himself with sinners by going through the baptism of John therefore once we believe in the gospel of truth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ we too walk through the waters of baptism identify ourselves with him.

you are right, first faith and then repentance and baptism.

God bless you

 

[Shannon9791]

well steve just tickle your fancy, i am replying to your statement. you say not to worry of the infants; i’ll leave the mentally ill out.

why not worry of the infants who later grow into adulthood and under the false pretense that their infant baptism has cleansed them from their sins.

Jerry, you do realize that baptism does not cleanse someone of all their sins? Only the original sin inherited from Adam. I think that might be where you run into a wall in this discussion.

 

[SHW]

Jerry, you do realize that baptism does not cleanse someone of all their sins? Only the original sin inherited from Adam. I think that might be where you run into a wall in this discussion.

Baptism does indeed cleanse original sin from our souls. This is the main reason for Baptism.

However, at the time of Baptism, all sins are cleansed, both original sin and personal sins (once you have reached the age of reason (about 7 years old)). Infants and young children are not capable of sinning personal sins.

All serious/mortal personal sins committed after Baptism cause you to lose your justification/salvation and these sins must be repented and confessed in order for you to regain your justification/salvation once again.

Baptism can only be administered once since it removes original sin from the soul, and original sin once removed, cannot reappear again on the soul.

 

[SteveGC]

well steve just tickle your fancy, i am replying to your statement. you say not to worry of the infants; i’ll leave the mentally ill out.

why not worry of the infants who later grow into adulthood and under the false pretense that their infant baptism has cleansed them from their sins.

So, your response was only about my brief comment about not worrying about how the primacy of faith applies to infants/mentally ill?

I didn’t say “let’s never worry about them”, Jerry. I was trying to say to you specifically (Jerry) not to worry JUST YET about how the teaching of baptism with the prerequisite of faith is applied to them. We don’t let baptized infants grow into adulthood thinking their water baptism forgives them their sins of adulthood. That’s why we have confirmation, confession, and the Eucharist…three sacraments all based on FAITH, obedience, contrition, and repentance. 2 of the 3 of these are perpetual, lifelong sacraments available to us…because our sin is likely to be perpetual until we die.

But the bottom line is that, before all these sacraments, there is one initial sacrament which forgives them of all sin (based on either their own faith [the adult], or the publicly declared assent of faith of their caregivers [infants/children] and brings them into the family of God, such that should they die before personal sin enters (or re-enters) their life, their eternal destiny is heaven. That one initial sacrament is water baptism, and what it does is APPLY the grace of forgiveness of sin on a person, and this grace comes from an originating source…and this we agree on…it comes from the blood sacrifice of our Lord Jesus. Water baptism does this…but it still requires faith…lifelong faith…and lifelong obedience, contrition and repentance.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

you have to born of God my friend

God bless.

 

[CaptainPicard]

I hope that this helps, Jerry.

blog.catholic-convert.com/?p=238

1. The first creation came from the the earth which was covered with WATER and the SPIRIT hovered over the waters and from the water emerged land and man and God’s first creation (Gen 1:1-2).

NoahsArk3.jpg2) A new humanity was started with Noah through WATER and SPIRIT. The ark went through the water and a dove (representing the Spirit) hovered overhead with an olive branch. Peter said this represents baptism which “now saves us” (1 Peter 3:18-21).

1. The nation of Israel was created through the WATER of the Red Sea (baptism) with the cloud and fire of the Holy SPIRIT overhead — my oh my, again we have water and Spirit (Ex 14).
2. Ezekiel then describes what the New Covenant will look like and he said we will be sprinkled with clean WATER and his SPIRIT will be placed in us (Ez 36:25). Born again, I suspect.
3. Then Jesus, right before saying you must be born of “water and the Spirit” had just gone down into the WATER of the Jordan and the SPIRIT came down and landed on his head. Again, water and the Spirit (Mt 3:16; Jn 1:29).
4. Jesus teaches Nicodemus that he must be born again, or from above which is accomplished through “WATER and the SPIRIT.“
5. When Jesus finished these words what was the first thing he did? He went down and baptized people in the Jordan with his disciples (Jn 4:1-2).
6. At the first Holy Ghost Gospel Revival meeting Peter stood up at Pentecost and said, “Repent, and be baptized (WATER) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy SPIRIT“ (Acts 2:38).
7. Peter also says “Baptism now saves you“ (1 Pet 3:18), and Paul is told “Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16), and Paul writes that we are saved “by the washing of regeneration (WATER) and renewal in the Holy SPIRIT“ (Titus 3:5).

 

[Zooey]

It would probably be better to say that God healed Naaman with the water of the Jordan, not because of any natural healing property of the water of the Jordan, but simply because God had promised, through His prophet Elisha, that, if Naaman dipped himself in the water of the Jordan seven times, he would be healed, and so he was. (2 Kings 5)

God used a material thing (the water of the Jordan) to bring grace to a soul (physical healing and faith to Naaman).

In the same way, God uses the water of baptism to bring the grace of spiritual regeneration to a soul. This spiritual rebirth does not occur because of any natural healing property of the water of baptism but simply because God has promised, through Jesus Christ and His Apostles, that, if anyone is baptized in water in His Name, that person will be spiritually born again: his past personal sins and his share in Adam’s sin (Original Sin) will be forgiven and he will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (See Acts 2:38)

Golly, that’s beautifully said, Todd.:thumbsup:What a great illustration of how Scripture comes together and every little bit of it points to Christ!!

well the water did not heal the man just like the water did not make the blind man see, it was the word of God that healed.

the baptismal waters is a symbol of ones’ salvation cause if it were as you all say then there are many people reborn as infants but as you know it is an act of faith.

God bless

well if the water is one of the ingredients for rebirth, i just can’t see how it refers to the baptismal waters.

naaman was told to go dip into the jordan 7 times but it was not the water that healed him and the blind man was told by Jesus to go wash in the pool but it was not the water that gave him sight, was it?

But, Jerry, you need to re-read the story!! Naaman has to obey the prophet and bathe in the Jordan. He is healed by his obedience.
And in the same way, when we choose to obey God, we have to follow what he tells us to do, even when it sounds too easy, or silly, or doesn’t make sense…which is why Naaman objected!! He wanted to understand first, he wanted an explanation, or he wasn’t going to do it!!..But if he hadn’t yielded his pride & submitted to bathing in the Jordan just because that was what God wanted him to do, he would never have been healed!!
So, we don’t have the privilege of demanding an explantion, or of setting our own conditions as to what we have to do to be born again. We have to simply obey, and the first thing that is asked of us, is baptism.
Do I understand how it was that my parents taking me to the church & having water poured over me–Do I see that as logical, as something I have to totally understand? No, of course not. And just like Naaman, we too can let our pride get in the way, and say that somehow it has to be more complicated than that…there must be something more to it, than just water on your head…
And that stubborn pride stands between us and God. It stands between little children and God. Even Jesus’ own disciples tried to keep the little ones from His blessing them…but Christ said, “Let the little children come unto me, and forbid them not; for of such is the kingdom of Heaven”.
Wow!! That simple? That easy?? Can’t be, can’t work, folks say, & they keep the little ones back from Him, and His blessing in the waters of baptism, and then they weep & wonder why their children could grow up in church, & read the Bible, & all that, and still go so far off…I have a friend who confided in me her sorrow over an adult son who is now in prison. She didn’t understand it. “I thought he knew the Lord, I thought he got saved”, she whispered, " I thought eventually he would be baptized when he found a church", & then I wanted to cry…because all those years, he had never been born again in the waters of baptism, so it was just that much easier for him to slide away… She & her husband don’t believe in infant baptism. They rely on feelings, & on a set formula of words…when none of that is what we are asked for…
It’s pride, Jerry, pride and rebellion, & pride and rebellion are what caused the fall of satan and all his minions. They were too proud, too full of who they were, and what they thought, too proud to bow to the King of kings…
And so are we, when we refuse such a simple thing. Embarrassingly simple, really.“Let the little ones come unto Me”.
Gosh, that’s so simple. That’s so easy.
Why rebel any longer?
God bless all here.

 

[SteveGC]

to Capt P, and Zooey.

I enjoyed reading both of your posts here. Very well done.

 

[SHW]

.I have a friend who confided in me her sorrow over an adult son who is now in prison. She didn’t understand it. “I thought he knew the Lord, I thought he got saved”, she whispered, " I thought eventually he would be baptized when he found a church", & then I wanted to cry…because all those years, he had never been born again in the waters of baptism, so it was just that much easier for him to slide away… She & her husband don’t believe in infant baptism. They rely on feelings, & on a set formula of words…when none of that is what we are asked for…

Good point!

So many people think that they just have to “admit that they have sinned” and “accept Jesus as their personal Savior,” and then they are “saved forever!”

“Nowhere” does it state in Scripture: “Accept Jesus as your personal Savior and you will be saved forever.” Instead, we are commanded to be baptized so that we can become disciples of Christ. Baptism is what makes us “born again” and being “born again” is what makes us disciples of Christ.

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Others think that Baptism is the “end all” and once we are baptized, then we are saved forever.

However, Scripture does not state this because Baptism is only the beginning of salvation:

Matthew 28:20
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

We must observe/do all the things that Jesus has commanded until our deaths in order to remain His disciples and inherit eternal life after we die.

 

[allhers]

Jerry,
I think SteveGC and others on here have answered your questions beautifully. I only have one
small thing to offer here.

When you said this… (back on post 27)…“i understand that catholics and others believe
that baptism by water washes away sins but i would have to differ with you on what washes
away sins. this what our LORD says on the matter found in Matthew 26:28 for this is My
blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins”.

As **I **was reading that, I thought of the movie Ben Hur. Have you ever seen that movie? During
the Crusifixion of our Lord, His blood is running down His body and there is a terrible
thunderstorm and the flood waters carry His blood down to the ground, those blood filled
waters finally reach two women who have leprosy, as soon as the water touches them, they are
miraclously cured on the spot.

It is the water that carried the blood of Christ to them. Jesus used that water to carry His
Precious blood to them and be applied to them.

I just wanted to share what went through my mind as I read what you wrote…I thought the
symbolism in that movie was beautiful.

Jesus allowed Himself to be Baptized to santify the waters for our Baptism. We know and
understand that it is the shedding of His blood that is of importance. Jesus used things
in our material world to show us but it is indeed the shedding of His blood that saves us.

Sacraments are outward signs of things that are happening spiritually, being applied to our
soul. I believe that is your understanding of that, you just explain it differenly. What we
call the Sacrament of Baptism is Jesus’ Precious Blood being applied to us, it is by His
merits, nothing that we have done or deserved. Just as He applied (in advance), His merits
to the Blessed Mother by a special grace, (which is another topic altogether.)

But I believe we all understand about His Precious Blood.