Born again/Born from above

[SteveGC]

Very good post, ah.

I just hope Jerry takes some time to absorb it. Maybe you’ll have better luck than I.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

faith comes from hearing, hearing what? that one needs to be baptized!!

c’mon my friends hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ, either you believe that He is the Son of God or not who came to die for your sins and was risen on the third day! that is where the rebirth of a person begins not at the baptismal waters.

if you are putting your trust in the waters of baptism you put your trust in yourself, baptism follows what one has experience from within the heart.

a believer goes through the baptismal waters to show the world in obedience to Christ that they are followers of Christ.

God bless you all.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Jerry, you do realize that baptism does not cleanse someone of all their sins? Only the original sin inherited from Adam. I think that might be where you run into a wall in this discussion.

haha, don’t let the leaders of the church hear say what you just said.

God bless.

 

[SHW]

haha, don’t let the leaders of the church hear say what you just said.

God bless.

Correct!

Baptism washes away all sins on the soul at the time of Baptism, both Original Sin and personal sins. Babies have no personal sins on their souls, so Baptism washes away only Original Sin from their souls. They are made disciples of Christ by Baptism. This is why Jesus commands that the Apostles baptize people from all nations: to make disciples of them. They become members of His Church and become partakers of His New Covenant by Baptism. “Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, etc.” is Jesus’ command. Why? Because baptism is what makes us His disciples. We are baptized into His death (the merits of His Blood Sacrifice are applied to our souls when we are baptized.)

Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Baptism regenerates us spiritually (reconciles us to God by atoning for Adam’s Original Sin.)

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

This is describing what Baptism does: It regenerates us spiritually.

 

[CaptainPicard]

faith comes from hearing

Correct!

hearing what? that one needs to be baptized!!

Amongst many other things, yes!

c’mon my friends hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ, either you believe that He is the Son of God or not who came to die for your sins and was risen on the third day!

Correct again! I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, died for our sins and was risen on the third day. AND I believe that His grace is given through baptism. Where’s the contradiction?

that is where the rebirth of a person begins not at the baptismal waters.

This is where you go wrong. Why ever would you believe this? Particularly when there is so much biblical evidence to the contrary. Your pastor said so so it must be true?

if you are putting your trust in the waters of baptism you put your trust in yourself,

No, you’re putting your trust in the Holy Spirit who operates in baptism. Have you even read any of the replies in this thread? You should know what Catholics actually believe before you try to convince them that they are wrong. How do you know that we’re wrong when you don’t understand what we believe?

a believer goes through the baptismal waters to show the world in obedience to Christ that they are followers of Christ.

There are probably a dozen new testament texts, along with tons of old testament typology and prophecy, along with the constant teaching of early church fathers that indicate that baptism actually accomplishes something. Why do you believe that baptism is a mere symbol? Why is salvation by grace so incompatible with baptism actually causing rebirth? Even many Sola Fide protestants believe that baptism is more than just a symbol – Lutherans, Anglicans, and many Calvinists. Do you have a problem with physical matter? Don’t you realize that our Creator and our Redeemer are one and the same? Or maybe you just don’t know the difference between old testament ritual and new testament sacraments?

God bless you all.

God bless you, too!

 

[Ignatius33]

I thought I would just add that baptismal regeneration was universally followed by the post-Apostolic Church and is still followed by every Church that predates the Protestant Reformation (e.g., Assyrian Church of the East, Coptic Orthodox Church, Ethiopian Orthodox Church, Syriac Orthodox Church, Armenian Apostolic Church, Eastern Orthodox Churches, Roman Catholic Church, etc.). Protestants are the innovaters when they deny the efficacy of the Sacrament of Baptism, which is clearly taught in Scripture (e.g., Matthew 28:19, John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:20-21) and by the earliest Christians. Here is just a sampling of the earliest Christians and how they understood the meaning of John 3:5…

1. St. Justin Martyr:

“Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: in the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior, Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, ‘Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [Jn. 3:3] . . . The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. Since we had no awareness of our first birth, but were compelled to be born of the moist seed through the mutual union of our parents, and were raised in bad habits and in evil training, and so that we might not remain as children of necessity and ignorance, but rather of deliberate choice and knowledge, and in order to obtain in the water the remission of past sins, there is invoked over him who wishes to be reborn and who has repented of his sins, the name of God, the Father and Master of all . . . This washing is called illumination, because it enlightens the intelligence of those who learn these things. Furthermore, the one being illuminated is washed also in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Spirit, who predicted through the prophets everything concerning Jesus” (First Apology [148-155 AD]).

1. St. Irenaeus:

“‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication for us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” [Jn. 3:5] (Fragment 34 [190 AD]).

1. St. Theophilus of Antioch:

“Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration [Titus 3:5] – all who proceed to the truth are born again and receive a blessing from God” (To Autolycus [ca. 181 AD]).

1. Tertullian:

“[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’” [Jn. 3:5] (Baptism [203 AD]).

1. St. Hippolytus of Rome:

“[Following baptism] the bishop, imposing his hand on them [during the sacrament of confirmation], shall make an invocation, saying: ‘O Lord God, who made them worthy of the remission of sins through the Holy Spirit’s washing unto rebirth, send into them your grace so that they may serve you according to your will: for there is glory to you, to the Father and the Son with the Holy Spirit, in the holy Church, both now and through the ages of ages. Amen’” (The Apostolic Tradition [ca. 215 AD]).

1. Origen:

“Formerly there was Baptism, in an obscure way, in the cloud and in the sea; now however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit” (Homilies on Numbers [post 244 AD]).

1. St. Cyprian of Carthage:

“[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’” [Jn. 3:5] (Letters 71[72]:1[253 AD]).

continued…

 

[Ignatius33]

1. Aphraates the Persian Sage:

“For from Baptism we receive the Spirit of Christ. At that same moment in which the priests invoke the Spirit, heaven opens, and He descends and rests upon the waters; and those who are baptized are clothed in Him. For the Spirit is absent from all those who are born of the flesh, until they come to the water of rebirth; and then they receive the Holy Spirit” (Treatises [inter 336-345 AD]).

1. St. Cyril of Jerusalem:

“Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. Thus, having our heart sprinkled by the Spirit and our body washed with pure water [Heb 10:22], we may draw near to God. When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who say this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And He says, ‘Unless a man be born again’ – and He adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit – he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’” [Jn. 3:5] (Catechetical Lectures [ca. 350 AD]).

1. St. Athanasius:

“[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ are we quickened” (Four Discourses Against the Arians [360 AD]).

1. St. Basil:

“This then is what it means to be born again of water and Spirit [Jn. 3:5]: just as our dying is effected in the water, our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and in an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water but from the Spirit’s presence there” (The Holy Spirit [375 AD]).

1. St. Gregory of Nyssa:

“[In] the birth by water and the Spirit, [Jesus] himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by his own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things he became the firstborn of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to his own by water and the Spirit” (Against Eunomius [382 AD]).

1. St. Gregory Nazianzen:

“Such is the grace and power of baptism; not an overwhelming of the world as of old, but a purification of the sins of each individual, and a complete cleansing from all the bruises and stains of sin. And since we are double-made, I mean of body and soul, and the one part is visible, the other invisible, so the cleansing also is twofold, by water and the Spirit; the one received visibly in the body, the other concurring with it invisibly and apart from the body; the one typical, the other real and cleansing the depths” (Oration on Holy Baptism [388 AD]).

1. St. Ambrose of Milan:

“The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11-12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism . . . ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’” [Jn. 3:5] (Abraham [387 AD]).

1. St. John Chrysostom:

“[N]o one can enter into the kingdom of heaven except he be regenerated through water and the Spirit [Jn. 3:5] . . . These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of the spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed head [the Mystical Body of Christ]” (The Priesthood [387 AD]).

1. St. Augustine:

“It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [Jn. 3:5]. The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam” (Letters 98:2 [412 AD]). I’ve never seen an early Christian writer interpret the water in John 3:5 to mean amniotic fluid (or something other than the water of Baptism for that matter).

1. St. Thomas Aquinas:

“Our Lord said (Jn. 3:5): ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’ . . . By Divine institution water is the proper matter of Baptism; and with reason. First, by reason of the very nature of Baptism, which is regeneration unto spiritual life” (Summa Theologica III, Q.66, Art. 3 [1265-1274 AD]).

“Hence it is clear that by Baptism man dies unto the oldness of sin, and begins to live unto the newness of grace. But every sin belongs to the primitive oldness. Consequently every sin is taken away by Baptism” (id. III, Q.69, Art. 1).

 

[Ignatius33]

I suppose, in the Protestant view, the earliest Christians, schooled by the Apostles themselves and their apostolic successors, completely misapprehended the Gospel. In other words, right from the getgo, from the Protestant perspective, the entire Church got the meaning of John 3:5 wrong. Keep in mind, these very same early Christians defended orthodox doctrine (e.g., the Blessed Trinity, the two natures of Christ, etc.) against every heresy imaginable and correctly delineated the NT canon. But they all had no clue what baptism meant or what the correct meaning of John 3:5 was. And, to boot, they were all in complete agreement on this error – not a single one followed the modern Protestant view on the meaning of John 3:5. That just blows my mind. I thought Jesus promised that the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church (Matt. 16:18).

 

[Jerry_Marino]

oh my friends if the waters of baptism would change a man from the inside out what a wonderful world we would live in but unfortunately it don’t. Jesus said that His words are of Spirit and it is His word of truth that sets us free.

this from who you consider to be the first pope, peter.

1 Peter 1:22 Since you have purified yourselves by obedience to the truth for sincere mutual love, love one another intensely from a (pure) heart. 23 You have been born anew, not from perishable but from imperishable seed, through the living and abiding word of God, 24 for: “All flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flower of the field; the grass withers, and the flower wilts; 25 but the word of the Lord remains forever.” This is the word that has been proclaimed to you.

first look at how we are purified: obedience to the truth. so the question here would be what is the truth?

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed 7 with the promised holy Spirit,

Colossians 1:5 Of this you have already heard through the word of truth, the gospel

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And for this reason we too give thanks to God unceasingly, that,in receiving the word of God from hearing us, you received not a human word but, as it truly is, the word of God, which is now atwork in you who believe…

so now that we’ve established the truth is the word of God, the gospel and the gospel is what (1 Corinthians 15:1-5) death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. next we see how we are born anew in the above in verse 23 through the living word of God.

that is how we are reborn again of God not of our own effort (baptism), now am i saying we should not be baptized? No! if you are a follower of Christ by believing that He died for your sins and have repented and turned towards Him for the forgiveness of your sins by all means what are you waiting for get up and be baptized!! showing obedience to your Lord and Savior.

God bless

 

[JustaServant]

First of all, the dramatic life-changing “Born Again” experiences reported by many is subjective – they vary in degree from person to person.
Secondly, these groups then take what is subjective and try to make it normative. In other words, they take these very personal encounters and insist that everyone must have a similar experience.
Lastly, these groups “re-Baptize” when they recruit ex-Catholics. This is what makes them of particular concern: they teach that the legitimate, licit, formal Baptism received by Catholics as infants into Jesus Christ is of no consequence, and must be replaced by a “Believer’s Baptism” in order for one to be able to say one is Baptized.
Catholic Baptism, on the other hand, is objective – as with all of the Sacraments, it is an act of God Himself. So whether one is an infant or an adult, one can be sure that if the right form and matter were used, one is Baptized into Jesus Christ, and has every right to the name of Christian. One can reasonably have the assurance of hope that if one obeys the commandments, loving God and loving neighbor and confessing/repenting of all mortal sin, one will be saved by Jesus Christ from judgment and hell.
It’s possible for Catholics to have the dramatic “experience” attested by many non-Catholics. But the “experience” is not equated with salvation. 2000 years of Church history is silent on that, until the last two centuries.
But the perception of non-Catholics is that these folks are “saved” by virtue of their experience, and in spite of the Church rather than through Her.
Yes, to be born of water and the spirit. That is water baptism and it is the objective action of God. Belief is initially the work of man (even though prompted by God’s Grace), Baptism is the work of God.

 

[SHW]

oh my friends if the waters of baptism would change a man from the inside out what a wonderful world we would live in but unfortunately it don’t. Jesus said that His words are of Spirit and it is His word of truth that sets us free.

this from who you consider to be the first pope, peter.

1 Peter 1:22 Since you have purified yourselves by obedience to the truth for sincere mutual love, love one another intensely from a (pure) heart. 23 You have been born anew, not from perishable but from imperishable seed, through the living and abiding word of God, 24 for: “All flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flower of the field; the grass withers, and the flower wilts; 25 but the word of the Lord remains forever.” This is the word that has been proclaimed to you.

first look at how we are purified: obedience to the truth. so the question here would be what is the truth?

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed 7 with the promised holy Spirit,

Colossians 1:5 Of this you have already heard through the word of truth, the gospel

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And for this reason we too give thanks to God unceasingly, that,in receiving the word of God from hearing us, you received not a human word but, as it truly is, the word of God, which is now atwork in you who believe…

so now that we’ve established the truth is the word of God, the gospel and the gospel is what (1 Corinthians 15:1-5) death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. next we see how we are born anew in the above in verse 23 through the living word of God.

that is how we are reborn again of God not of our own effort (baptism), now am i saying we should not be baptized? No! if you are a follower of Christ by believing that He died for your sins and have repented and turned towards Him for the forgiveness of your sins by all means what are you waiting for get up and be baptized!! showing obedience to your Lord and Savior.

God bless

Step 1: Baptism makes us disciples of Christ.

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Step 2: We are then taught how to become good Christians and what we must do in order to inherit eternal life.

Matthew 28:20
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

This is what Jesus commanded His Church to do and it is why He founded His Church and why we must also obey His Church (so that we can learn the truth in order to be able to inherit eternal life with Him in heaven forever).

 

[wisdomseeker]

don’t mean nothing to me, if one who is saved is born of God how can it be that water baptism is what is needed along with the Spirit to born from above?

so by the catholic definition of born again baptism is the key?

what do you say of the millions who were baptized as infants but never truly followed Christ?

God bless.

i think you are getting confused with entering the Kingdom of God and being saved.

get those straight first.

 

[wisdomseeker]

oh my friends if the waters of baptism would change a man from the inside out what a wonderful world we would live in but unfortunately it don’t. Jesus said that His words are of Spirit and it is His word of truth that sets us free.

this from who you consider to be the first pope, peter.

1 Peter 1:22 Since you have purified yourselves by obedience to the truth for sincere mutual love, love one another intensely from a (pure) heart. 23 You have been born anew, not from perishable but from imperishable seed, through the living and abiding word of God, 24 for: “All flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flower of the field; the grass withers, and the flower wilts; 25 but the word of the Lord remains forever.” This is the word that has been proclaimed to you.

first look at how we are purified: obedience to the truth. so the question here would be what is the truth?

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed 7 with the promised holy Spirit,

Colossians 1:5 Of this you have already heard through the word of truth, the gospel

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And for this reason we too give thanks to God unceasingly, that,in receiving the word of God from hearing us, you received not a human word but, as it truly is, the word of God, which is now atwork in you who believe…

so now that we’ve established the truth is the word of God, the gospel and the gospel is what (1 Corinthians 15:1-5) death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. next we see how we are born anew in the above in verse 23 through the living word of God.

that is how we are reborn again of God not of our own effort (baptism), now am i saying we should not be baptized? No! if you are a follower of Christ by believing that He died for your sins and have repented and turned towards Him for the forgiveness of your sins by all means what are you waiting for get up and be baptized!! showing obedience to your Lord and Savior.

God bless

yes, all this is written in our Bibles too, we know . it happened 2000 yrs ago. He also left us an authoritative Church. a set of beliefs that we must follow and believe. a Church to safeguard the Truth of His teachings so people wouldnt know exactly what He wanted us to do in today’s world. a Church that could fight hereticals teaching along the way. a Church that can stand to the world when they go ashtray from God s way. a Church that He promised He would be with until the end of time. the Church came out of the Mouth of the Master 2000yrs ago. i know many people dont like to hear that it makes them close their ears. how do you think the Bible came to be? who do you think compiled the Bible? the Church is set. She was taught by Jesus Himself and the Apostles. She knows what the Bible says and more. Oral Tradition. not everything has been written.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

believe in the name of the Lord!

God bless

 

[wisdomseeker]

believe in the name of the Lord!

God bless

believe also what Jesus said. not just the name.

“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all say the same thing; and there be no dissensions among you, but that you be perfectly united in one mind and in one judgment.”
1Corinthians 1:10

do you see protestants and Catholics saying the same thing? do you see protestants and Catholics as one Church? do you see protestants and Catholics in one Spirit?

“I will bring them into my holy mount, and will make them joyful in ‘my house of prayer’. Their holocausts and their victims shall please me upon my altar, for my house shall be called the house of prayer, for all nations.”
Isaiah 56:7

 

[leopolis1]

For Protestants “to be born again” means to abandon their Protestant heresies and come to a true unity with Jesus by becoming Catholic. You cannot be born again if you are separated from the vicar of Christ, you have no Eucharist and don’t confess your sins. You are outside the Church.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

well to be born again has to come from God and if that is heresy then i am guilty. to be in the church is not of a building, remember the words of the Lord were of Spirit so the Church is of Spirit. to the woman at the well He said that true worshippers will worship in Spirit cause God is Spirit not confined to lil place called a church.

God bless.

 

[wisdomseeker]

well to be born again has to come from God and if that is heresy then i am guilty. to be in the church is not of a building, remember the words of the Lord were of Spirit so the Church is of Spirit. to the woman at the well He said that true worshippers will worship in Spirit cause God is Spirit not confined to lil place called a church.

God bless.

and where exactly does it say here that Jesus did not built His Church? if there is no building where do you go to worship God? the building Catholics worship in is dedicated to God and it is considered Sacred to us. of course you could not possibly know anything about this.

:byzsoc:

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Spiritual my friend

God bless.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Spiritual my friend

God bless.

we are humans beings made of flesh and blood. we are not spirit only.

Jesus did not become flesh and blood came to earth to build an invisible Church.

this is a made up theology by protestants because the Bible does not have meaning outside the Church Jesus built. so you have to come with something to justify your faith.

you know, one lie builts another and another and another… and goes on and on…