Born Again?

[Syele]

**Syele takes four of Sandusky’s Brownie points and gives two each to Carol Marie and Mikey.

 

[IHSpetros]

I think accepting is a probably not the best word, but I suspect that this is another way of saying “Believing.” I always careful of using believing instead of accepting.

**

Acts 16:13

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

John 3:16 (Same chapter where being “Born again” is defined, Jesus explains)

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

**

The “accept” is also another way of saying “receive” Him.

**
John 1

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

**

Although I agree with the bible verses that you posted up, you still fail to answer my question. Once again, where in those passages does it say one is “born again” by accepting, recieving, or believing Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior? The bible clearly teaches that one is “born again” at baptism.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Although I agree with the bible verses that you posted up, you still fail to answer my question. Once again, where in those passages does it say one is “born again” by accepting, recieving, or believing Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior? The bible clearly teaches that one is “born again” at baptism.

Hi,
Is this what you are looking for?

John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

vs 4–How can a man be born when he is old?" asked Nicodemus. “Surely he can not enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

vs5-- Jesus answered,"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the spirit. vs6–Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to the spirit. vs 7–You should not be surprised at my saying, You must be born again.
Please read the rest on your own John 3:1-21.

I understand the CC teaches this to refer to baby baptism. I understand but it could also mean actual birth and amniotic fluid. I personally dont know. Either way Jesus wants us to be baptized by water. I personally think baptism is done after a profession of faith. But hey, I was baptized as a baby and so were my kids. All three of us will get baptized again so we can make a public profession(to our fellow brothers and sister in Christ) that we believe and follow Christ.

These passages also clearly state we need to be born again of the Spirit—that means believing in Christ. Obviously you are not a baby when you do this. A baby cant make that decision yet.

Hope that helps.

 

[Archbishop]

The original poster asks a valid question but the mistake is made by trying to single out one single verse that teaches this issue.

Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again by water and the Spirit. The act of baptism alone is not sufficient as I understand what Jesus is saying. The sacrament of baptism must also be accompanied by the act of the Holy Spirit regenerating the soul that is dead in trespasses and sins and making it alive unto Jesus Christ. This two-fold act completes the process of being born again.

Now, is it wrong to say that Jesus is “my personal” Lord and Savior? No. Salvation is a personal issue. The Apostles told people that they must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and that they must confess Christ. I must make the profession of faith in Christ as my Lord and Savior. Someone else cannot make it for me. I must personally believe. The fact that my wife believes in Christ does not assure me of my salvation. I have to make a personal choice of Christ as MY Lord and Savior.

When infants are baptized, there is the cleansing from the stain of original sin that takes place by water and the Spirit. However, there still comes a time when that child will mature and will need to profess Christ personally. A person baptized as an infant but then lives a sinful life without Christ, has no assurance of salvation. There is no evidence of conversion. There is no repentance.

One poster stated that when asked if they were born again they would state that Jesus is their Lord and Savior and that they choose to follow Christ every day. That is an excellent response. It is a personal choice to follow Christ as Savior and Lord. But, one is not born again everytime that choice is made. That choice is made because one is born again already.

We have to take the totality of the Scriptures to look at what it means to be saved or born again. If we look at just one verse we could also conclude that baptism is not necessary, that all that is needed is a verbal profession of Christ as Lord and Savior. Or we could conclude that only baptism is necessary and not any profession of faith before other people.

On the other hand, we must not make the salvation process complicated. It isn’t. Repentance of sins, faith in Christ as Lord and Savior and then following his commands such as being baptized is all that is necessary. (We of course know that there are circumstances where baptism by water cannot be done such as a deathbed conversion - but we have the issue of baptism by desire in that case).

Just the 2 cents from an Anglican…

++Mark

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

there is a very good apoligetics page for this subject on the main Catholic Answers site.

as for my view, I would question them on the meaning of the passages where the phrase occurs, on of which is the beginning of the third chapter of John

Joh 3:1 And there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
Joh 3:2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him: Rabbi, we know that thou art come a teacher from God; for no man can do these signs which thou dost, unless God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith to him: How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born again?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh: and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Wonder not that I said to thee: You must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The Spirit breatheth where he will and thou hearest his voice: but thou knowest not whence he cometh and whither he goeth. So is every one that is born of the Spirit.

this sounds more like a discussion on baptism, though Nicodemeus would not have realized it.

the other major occurence is

1Pe 1:22 Purifying your souls in the obedience of charity, with a brotherly love, from a sincere heart love one another earnestly:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible, by the word of God who liveth and remaineth for ever.

which seems to talk about love, charity, and obedience. strangely it also says that we must purify ourselves through obediently doing the works of love. I would suggest here that “word of God” is probably Christ and not the bible which the english structure here supports (though I do not know enough greek to say if the origional construction is indicitive of the same)

personally i think that the warnings of Peter apply

2Pe 2:18 For, speaking proud words of vanity, they allure by the desires of fleshly riotousness those who for a little while escape, such as converse in error:
2Pe 2:19 Promising them liberty, whereas they themselves are the slaves of corruption. For by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave.

and

2Pe 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

it sometimes seems that some of this who dwell on “born again” (as well as “assurance of salvation” which is another conversation altogether) use these concepts as excuses not to delve deeper into what scripture asks of us.

by the way, notice it is Peter who warns us against twisting the scriptures to our own destruction, perhaps it is inevitable that they should ignore him as they ignore his successors

John 3.5 can be read as either​

• born again
  or
• born from above,
  Nicodemus takes the operative word - anōthen - in one sense, while Jesus meant it in another, somewhat different one. Unfortunately, it is not possible to reproduce the play upon words in English.

It is because Jesus is “from above” (see verses 2, 13) that He can speak as He does.

This sort of misunderstanding is a feature of St. John’s gospel - it is a means of showing that Jesus cannot be recognised for Who & What He truly is, unless His Father enlightens those who come to Him. ##

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

I was baptized in the Catholic Church as an infant in 1958.

I was “born again” when I received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior in December, 1996.

 

[Veritas41]

I think you are twisting it in your assumption that protestants do not believe that they are to do good works just because they have been “born again”. There is a name for that heresy but I can’t remember it atm. What ever it’s called, Most protestants do not agree with it. My own pastor preached on the importance good works just this Sunday. Becoming a follower of Christ is more than a confession of Faith. It is a no turning back decesion to do everything God requires of us (including Baptism) and then doing it.

.

I used to be Protestant, and every church I belonged to or visited taught that good works were *evidence *that a person was saved, but did not teach good works were *necessary *for salvation. Looking at the faith vs. works from both sides, it seems the biggest difference between Catholics and Protestants on this issue is whether good works are automatic as a result of saving faith or if a Christian must daily choose to do good works (which he does because of his faith, with his faith and good works both being possible because of the gift of grace) to accompany his faith in order to make his faith salvific.

 

[Syele]

I used to be Protestant, and every church I belonged to or visited taught that good works were *evidence *that a person was saved, but did not teach good works were *necessary *for salvation. Looking at the faith vs. works from both sides, it seems the biggest difference between Catholics and Protestants on this issue is whether good works are automatic as a result of saving faith or if a Christian must daily choose to do good works (which he does because of his faith, with his faith and good works both being possible because of the gift of grace) to accompany his faith in order to make his faith salvific.

you are right that Catholic Justification is different than Protestant Justification… but the idea that works are not necessary at all is not the typical protestant definition.

The works do not help me get saved, but if I am really saved I will do the works, we both agree that Faith without works is dead.

 

[kellie]

Do I think their Church is the one Jesus founded? The One True Church? Nope. If I did, I’d join it. But I do think they love Jesus with their whole hearts so I’ll just be the best witness I can for my Cahtolic faith and leave it at that.

If someone truly loves Jesus with all their heart, how could they not be Catholic, and be a member of His church that He founded?

Either way Jesus wants us to be baptized by water. I personally think baptism is done after a profession of faith. But hey, I was baptized as a baby and so were my kids. All three of us will get baptized again so we can make a public profession(to our fellow brothers and sister in Christ) that we believe and follow Christ.

These passages also clearly state we need to be born again of the Spirit—that means believing in Christ. Obviously you are not a baby when you do this. A baby cant make that decision yet.

Hope that helps.

Catholics (most) get baptised as infants, and our parents start straight away teaching us about our Faith.

At about age 10 or 11, we receive Sacrament of Confirmation, which is when we confirm the baptismal rites our parents agreed to when we were born, and we also receive the Holy Spirit, to live lives as a Christian. This is how we profess our faith to the world. We don’t get baptised again.

I think to be born again means to be baptised with water.

 

[setter]

I was baptized in the Catholic Church as an infant in 1958.

I was “born again” when I received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior in December, 1996.

Congratulations on your spiritual rebirth in Jesus Christ!

May you be open to God bringing you home to the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church.

 

[Mickey]

I was baptized in the Catholic Church as an infant in 1958.

I was “born again” when I received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior in December, 1996.

You were baptized and hence born again in 1958. The fruit of that grace was realized in 1996. Now all you have to do is come back home! You will be welcomed with open arms!

 

[Saint_Michael]

The entire argument over faith and works is with us simply because after reading the Bible you can’t help but be hopelessly confused on the issue. In Paul’s letters he seemingly contradicts himself over and over. In one letter he tells the community to throw the fornicator out of there midst, in another he preaches forgiveness of their fellow sinners. In one letter he proclaims salvation is a free gift from God, and works get you nothing so no man can boast, in another he warns to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. (if I’m saved and assured of salvation from a one time act of accepting Christ why would I need to work out salvation with fear and trembling?)

Reading the Bible alone is a hopeless situation, absolutely hopeless, I’ve been there and done that. I was distraught because to accept the idea that salvation is as simple a one time act of accepting Jesus required me to ignore hundreds of other passages that seem to say the opposite, and your salvation is a free gift from God, but you have to obey the commandments to recieve it, and to work out salvatuion through fear and trembling.

Without the Catholic Church’s apostolic tradition I would’ve quit on Christianity a long time ago. Reading the Bible alone is a failed endeavor because one Epistle will seemingly contradict a letter, one sentence contradicts the following sentence until I’m ready to pull my hair out.

I don’t know how you Bible alone guys do it honestly. That’s also why there are endless variants within your churches on any issue, salvation, works, baptism, justification, eschatology, and on and on and on.

 

[sandusky]

I was baptized in the Catholic Church as an infant in 1958.

I was “born again” when I received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior in December, 1996.

Amen! Me too! Baptized in the Catholic church, and re-baptized outside of it after I was regenerated many years later!

Baptism does not regenerate, neither is baptism essential to salvation.

Scrutinize the O.T. for the word baptism, and you will do so in vain.

That is because God is immutable; He doesn’t change, and that is especially true of HIS REQUIREMENT for salvation. God nowhere requires baptism for salvation.

Salvation has always and only been, salvation is now, and salvation will forever be by GRACE ALONE, THROUGH FAITH ALONE, IN GOD ALONE!!!

If baptism is an essential requirement for salvation, then all of those from Eden to Christ are lost.

Abel, Enoch, Noah, Shem, Ham, Japeth, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Caleb, Samuel, David, Ruth, Boaz, Esther, Mordecai, Isaiah, Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Ezra, Nehemia, and on, and on, and on. And what about all of those who trust in Christ, and do not baptize?

That is absurd!

The answer to “what must I do to be saved?” has always been BELIEVE!

Christ baptized no one; Paul baptized two, and Paul tells why he didn’t baptize: he was sent to preach THE GOSPEL.

The Gospel is the instrument used by God in regeneration. In every passage describing new birth, the word of God is always mentioned. Ps 119:50, “Your word has quickened me;” Paul says “I have begotten you, I have become your Father, through the Gospel” (1 Cor 4:15); James says “in the exercise of His will God brought us forth BY” (what? Baptism? NO!) BY the WORD OF TRUTH, the Gospel (1:18); Peter says we are "born again not of perishable seed, but imperishable—through the living, and enduring WORD OF GOD, the Gospel.

Water in John 3 is an emblem for God’s word. This is seen also in drinking the waters of eternal life in John 4:14; in the living water of John 7:37-38; and other emblems used for God’s word: a Lamp as it illumines (Ps 119:105); a hammer as it breaks up the hardened heart (Jer 23:29); water because it cleanses (Ps 119:9; Jn 15:3; Eph 5:26).

Being born of water does not mean the laver of baptism, nor a baptism of desire; being born of water means being born of the illuminating, heart-breaking, purifying word of God.

 

[MGEISING]

Yes, I’m getting annoyed. Did the rich young ruler decide to follow Christ? No, He decided his riches were more important than God. What did the Deciples do? They dropped everything and Followed Christ. Explain to me why making a decision to follow Christ and confessing it before men is bad.

What is wrong - a lot of protestants believe this is all they have to do and bingo - their in. That is what is wrong with it.

Jesus says the road to heavan is very narrow…

"Enter through the narrow gate," Jesus advises. “For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it” (vs. Matthew 7:13-14).

I always say I was born right the first time - only kidding:whacky: We are born again by our Baptism and Confirmation - and we have an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ via the Eucharist! Can’t get any personal than that!

Taking verses out of context is a pretext (Dr. Scott Hahn).

 

[carol_marie]

The answer to “what must I do to be saved?” has always been BELIEVE!

.

The demons believe in Jesus.

 

[Saint_Michael]

The demons believe in Jesus.

19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[MGEISING]

The demons believe in Jesus.

I like that! Fr. Larry Richards always says that …

 

[MGEISING]

19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

My favorite scripture passage for denouncing ONLY HAVE TO BELIEVE IN JESUS!

 

[carol_marie]

19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Those were the exact passages I was thinking of. Thanks for typing for me!

 

[Mickey]

Baptism does not regenerate, neither is baptism essential to salvation.

sandusky’s misunderstanding–a late revisionist interpretation.

Scrutinize the O.T. for the word baptism, and you will do so in vain.

Scrutinize the O.T. for “types” of baptisms, you will be astounded.

That is because God is immutable; He doesn’t change

Agreed.

God nowhere requires baptism for salvation.

sandusky theology.

If baptism is an essential requirement for salvation, then all of those from Eden to Christ are lost.

Christ was baptized in the Jordan. I will imitate Christ.

That is absurd!

There is nothing absurd about it. God’s mercy is boundless!

Christ baptized no one

After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.(Jn 3:22)

The Gospel is the instrument used by God in regeneration. In every passage describing new birth, the word of God is always mentioned.

The Word of God is Jesus Christ (The Word made flesh).

Water and the Spirit

Baptism.

Water in John 3 is an emblem for God’s word.

Nope

This is seen also in drinking the waters of eternal life in John 4:14; in the living water of John 7:37-38;

These analogies are referring to the Holy Spirit.

Being born of water does not mean the laver of baptism, nor a baptism of desire; being born of water means being born of the illuminating, heart-breaking, purifying word of God.

Being born of water means receiving the Grace of God through baptism. Just as the Word (Logos) (Jesus) was baptized and the Trinity was revealed–the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in the form of a dove and the Father was well pleased. Father, Son and Holy Spirit were revealed here–one in substance and undivided. And so when we imitate Christ we are baptized into Christ by the holy Spirit, and the Father is well pleased.