Boston bomber angry at the U.S

[CatholicGeek1]

And for “years” this has been pointed out!!!

All we hear after every atrocity is that there are Good Muslims. Usually its the good muslims who want to build mosques on the bombing sights? I’m not sure who’s who? Do these good muslims walk around proclaiming there are Good Christians? I never heard that one either.

I think the disconnect is that we only really see and hear the outspoken off the wall Muslims. The Westboro’s of the Muslim world as it were. I have several friends that are Muslim. They do not want to make political statements, they do not want to blow everyone up, they want to live their life, raise their children and be left alone. I believe that this is the vast majority of Muslims who are being given a bad name by the VERY vocal minority.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think the disconnect is that we only really see and hear the outspoken off the wall Muslims. The Westboro’s of the Muslim world as it were. I have several friends that are Muslim. They do not want to make political statements, they do not want to blow everyone up, they want to live their life, raise their children and be left alone. I believe that this is the vast majority of Muslims who are being given a bad name by the VERY vocal minority.

At what point would you say the Tsarnaev brothers and their mother stopped being “good” Muslims from this point of view, and started becoming “good” Muslims from the radical Islamic point of view?

 

[CatholicGeek1]

At what point would you say the Tsarnaev brothers and their mother stopped being “good” Muslims from this point of view, and started becoming “good” Muslims from the radical Islamic point of view?

At the point they decided that everyone around them that was not like them was worthy of their hatred and being killed.

 

[Ridgerunner]

At the point they decided that everyone around them that was not like them was worthy of their hatred and being killed.

And this notion came from where?

What we, who are not Muslims, don’t know and can’t know, is the degree to which the transition is easy.

I have some very good friends who are Arab Muslims. They’re pretty secular and not terribly observant in anything. They claim that the murderousness in aggressive Islam is actually an Arabic cultural thing that has been, to varying degrees, adopted by some of the ethnic “outliers”. But, of course, the Koran is an Arabic document.

The ones I know accept that murderousness as simply part of the “background” in the Islamic world, likely as not to catch you unawares. As a survivor of the wedding blast in Amman, at least one of them is pretty well credentialed to hold that opinion.

 

[OneSheep]

I don’t know where you get this. You are, in effect, saying nobody would ever hurt anybody else unless the perpetrator himself was hurt first. This is not psychologically or morally correct. We actually do have free will and can do evil without having any motivation for it other than malice or self aggrandizement.

I suppose I am not getting my point across. I agree with you, people do evil for their own self-aggrandizement, and the reason that they do not consider the humanity of their victims is because their empathy is blocked, they are blind to the humanity of their victims. From what I know, most often people who are in a position of power and persecute others are under the opinion that the victims somehow “deserve” the injury. You (I think it was you?) accurately pointed out that desire for power feeds hatred, and this is the mechanism. When something is greatly desired, someone standing in the way is seen as an object to overcome. Empathy is automatically blocked. In order to take the steps to destroy another human, the mind finds a justification, a reason to condemn the obstructing person(s). I think we will find out that the two boys found plenty of reasons why the bystanders deserved to die.

There is at least one other chilling scenario. Last night on 60 minutes, there was a story about a nurse who murdered possibly hundreds of people by use of lethal injection. Most of the people were not terminally ill. The person who murdered had himself tried to commit suicide over 20 times. It is possible, in this case, that he projected his own self-perceived lack of value on everyone else. If no life is of value, he will proceed murdering as if all such action is of no consequence. He may not have thought that his victims “deserved” to die, he may have just thought it was no big deal.

“Malice” as a motive is vague and doesn’t explain behaviors. “Malice” is a description I give to a behavior I find atrocious, but is not a “motivator” per se. The motive is the need for power or control, or to punish someone. The action may hurt someone. This action is where the description of “malice” comes in.

 

[OneSheep]

Yes I see where you are coming from, I just happen to know you are completely wrong.

Feel free to offer alternative explanations.

In the mean time, we can all agree that God wants us to forgive everyone we hold something against, and that forgiveness brings peace, can we not? We all have our ways of understanding why people do what they do. Forgiveness transcends all of this.

So, please, no need to argue the ways we have of understanding the world. Help me promote forgiveness. This is our calling. Consider this an invitation.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

And this notion came from where?

What we, who are not Muslims, don’t know and can’t know, is the degree to which the transition is easy.

I have some very good friends who are Arab Muslims. They’re pretty secular and not terribly observant in anything. They claim that the murderousness in aggressive Islam is actually an Arabic cultural thing that has been, to varying degrees, adopted by some of the ethnic “outliers”. But, of course, the Koran is an Arabic document.

The ones I know accept that murderousness as simply part of the “background” in the Islamic world, likely as not to catch you unawares. As a survivor of the wedding blast in Amman, at least one of them is pretty well credentialed to hold that opinion.

The bombers weren’t Arab. A great deal of the people involved in these attacks are not Arab.

 

[OneSheep]

The bombers weren’t Arab. A great deal of the people involved in these attacks are not Arab.

I would add that desire to kill someone is hardly a cultural thing. Thus, again, the universal importance of a call for forgiveness.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The bombers weren’t Arab. A great deal of the people involved in these attacks are not Arab.

I never said they were. That’s why I referred to them as “outliers”. Chechens seem to be an Indo-European/ Turkic mix more than anything else. but they live on the perhiphery of the Muslim world and, being Islamic, are influenced by the Arabic religion of Islam and therefore the culture of the ARab world.

We who are Christians or Jews would be hard put to deny that we are profoundly influenced by the Old (Hebrew) Testament.

In the same sort of way, we in the West are heavily influenced by the cultures of ancient Greece and Rome, as well as by the cultures of the Celts and Teutons. That particular mix had a very long life as a mix, and influences us very strongly to this day.

A monocentric thing like Islam with actual claims to minutely govern both the religious and secular spheres, can hardly fail to inculcate a lot of (initially) Arabic cultural values on its peripheral adherents. That’s not to say Chechens cannot have cultural inclinations all their own.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I would add that desire to kill someone is hardly a cultural thing. Thus, again, the universal importance of a call for forgiveness.

There have been plenty of murderous cultures in history.

 

[GaryTaylor]

. Radicalism in Islam is far from universal. Muslims who believe in the Sharia, for example, see the law as freeing, just as the law functions in our own society. Of course, there are cultural differences, and I disagree with a lot of Sharia law, but our own social restrictions used to be pretty severe too, at times in Western history. Laws evolve as consideration is given both to protection and freedom - and human rights.

We didn’t campaign world wide with a vision of hate. I fail to see the analogy nor do I see Baptist Christians as an analogy. They are not terrorists bombing people world wide. That analogy is about like comparing a small town little league baseball team to a MLB team and an international one at that.

The Islamic dogma is radical look at the middle east. That’s what that dogma correctly applied yields. Iran, Egypt, SA, Nigeria, Iraq, Syria. Not Universal? Well international is but a step away. All muslims believe in sharia law, or they are not completely converted and still secularized, moderate. Same path the bombers took. Its a conversion process is all. Radical Islam would argue that those secular muslims are just a point or two away from “true” conversion.

My sympathy is with those recovering in Mass, the amputation’s and emotional adjustment. how long do you suppose it would take them to “forget”? I don’t see hate in Boston, by the victims, by this area, no violence, no Islamic hate. I fail to see the forgiveness point.

When Islam gets over itself and learns to co-exist with the “infidels” thus “forgiveness” then this conversation may be valid. Till then there’s a problem. Forgiveness doesn’t make the problem go away. And I fail to see the hate here to begin with. The only attention Islam gets here is when it acts out in terrorism. Nobody cares about it otherwise. I do not care who you pray to in your home. Apparently Islam does. So really who has the problem here?

I take “no” comfort in secular, modernized muslims and what they “think” the Quran teaches. The middle east seems to suggest otherwise.

 

[SamH]

Feel free to offer alternative explanations.

In the mean time, we can all agree that God wants us to forgive everyone we hold something against, and that forgiveness brings peace, can we not?

No we can’t.

Who said forgiveness brings peace?

 

[BroomWagon]

The attack at the Boston Marathon killed three people and wounded more than 260 others.

Three additional suspects have been taken into custody in the investigation of last month’s bombings at the Boston Marathon, the Boston Police Department said on its official Twitter feed Wednesday.

A police spokeswoman, Katherine Shea, said by telephone that she had no further details to provide.

3 more Boston boming suspects in custody: Tweet from the Boston Police Department.

“It’s happening right now,” Shea said.

A law enforcement source told Reuters that one of the three suspects is a U.S. citizen.

Investigators had previously identified two suspects, ethnic Chechen brothers they said placed pressure-cooker bombs at the race’s finish line on April 15.

One, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, 19, is being held in a prison medical center after being formally charged with crimes that carry the death penalty.

news.msn.com/crime-justice/three-additional-suspects-in-custody-in-boston-bomb-investigation?ocid=ansnews11

One of the 3 suspects is a US citizen? So does this mean 2 are foreigners? Odd report, others seem to say possibly fellow students arrested for helping cover up evidence or aiding and abbetting a criminal I would say would be possible charges, made me think of the 2 women and 1 male spoken to initially at Dartmouth but now unsure.

 

[OneSheep]

My sympathy is with those recovering in Mass, the amputation’s and emotional adjustment. how long do you suppose it would take them to “forget”? I don’t see hate in Boston, by the victims, by this area, no violence, no Islamic hate. I fail to see the forgiveness point.

I am praying for the victims. I really doubt they will ever forget. Forgetting is not necessarily called for, though it would certainly be nice to selectively do so. As far as “hate” goes, I hear plenty of anti-Muslim vitriol on the radio and get plenty of emails from people spreading stuff. The bombings will certainly add fuel to the fire, understandably so. And I was angry about the bombings, thus my own need to forgive. I’m sure that many people were, and still are, very angry about what happened. This anger is not wrong, but forgiveness is called for, eventually.

When Islam gets over itself and learns to co-exist with the “infidels” thus “forgiveness” then this conversation may be valid. Till then there’s a problem. Forgiveness doesn’t make the problem go away. And I fail to see the hate here to begin with. The only attention Islam gets here is when it acts out in terrorism. Nobody cares about it otherwise. I do not care who you pray to in your home. Apparently Islam does. So really who has the problem here?

I take “no” comfort in secular, modernized muslims and what they “think” the Quran teaches. The middle east seems to suggest otherwise.

Forgiveness is the first step in solving the problems, when there is a need for forgiveness. If we forgive first, then everything we do to resolve differences, from that point on, will be done from a position of love for the other. We reap what we sow.

No we can’t.

Who said forgiveness brings peace?

Forgiveness brings reconcilitation. Reconciliation brings a true, lasting peace. Can you think of a counterexample?

 

[SamH]

Forgiveness brings reconcilitation. Reconciliation brings a true, lasting peace. Can you think of a counterexample?

Jesus Christ forgave his persecutors then the killed him. Is that the peace you are looking for?

 

[CatholicGeek1]

Jesus Christ forgave his persecutors then the killed him. Is that the peace you are looking for?

He forgave them while they were killing him as an example of the incredible love and forgiveness that He has for all of us that passes human understanding. I sincerely doubt that there is any person that has the level of love and forgiveness for all that Christ Himself displayed, this does not make it a bad thing to strive for though.

Forgiveness does not mean forgetting what happened. Forgiveness does not mean that the guilty should not be punished for their crimes. Forgiveness means not harboring feelings of revenge, not harboring hatred, not wanting bad things to happen to someone because of what they did. We should punish criminals under the law to promote the civil good and protect society, this is a legitimate function of the government. We should not wish bad things happen to them beyond the just punishment that the law prescribes.

Basically, we should forgive, let the government decide guilt or innocence and hand out needed punishment, and then let God proclaim final judgement on the person.

Remember, while I think it unlikely that this will happen, if this bomber earnestly repents of his sin, turns to God, and obtains absolution, in the end, he will make it to heaven.

 

[BroomWagon]

St. Maximilian Kolbe, the Martyrs in Mexico, Korea and Vietnam just for starters, there have been many who have shown great self-sacrifice. Even that girl who declared herself a Christian and was killed at Columbine must be a holy martyr.

So Martyrdom different than forgiving one’s enemies but seems similar.

 

[OneSheep]

Jesus Christ forgave his persecutors then the killed him. Is that the peace you are looking for?

Well, no.

I think that maybe you have missed my point.

1. Forgiveness is one central tenet of every major religion.
2. We should encourage such forgiveness in all faiths.

I am talking about paying it forward. I am talking about loving our neighbor and our enemy. If I take out a sword, it inspires my enemy to do the same. If I offer forgiveness…

 

[oldcelt]

Well, no.

I think that maybe you have missed my point.

1. Forgiveness is one central tenet of every major religion.
2. We should encourage such forgiveness in all faiths.

I am talking about paying it forward. I am talking about loving our neighbor and our enemy. If I take out a sword, it inspires my enemy to do the same. If I offer forgiveness…

Forgiveness is an important step in settling issues like this. The problem is that our attackers have shown no sign of repenting or changing their ways. We cannot, as a nation, grant blanket forgiveness to people who are still intent on hitting us a every opportunity.
The Islamic people ( all groups actually) need to become far more active in opposing the radical elements in their faith. They are the ones with the best chance of identifying and exposing the most dangerous elements.
It is now looking like those closest to the Boston bombers at very least knew of their activities shortly after the attacks…and it would not surprise me if they had some advance knowledge. People like this rarely function in complete anonymity, and those closest need to speak up…then we can start a dialog…then we can begin the forgiveness and healing process.

 

[OneSheep]

Forgiveness is an important step in settling issues like this. The problem is that our attackers have shown no sign of repenting or changing their ways.

Do you remember the story about the miracle of the loaves and fishes? A priest once explained to me that people nearly always carried food with them, but it was impolite to take our food and eat in front of someone else without sharing. In addition, if someone offered you food, it was impolite not to share what you had - even if it was in your cloak. Everyone was afraid to take out their own food, otherwise they would have to share. So when the loaves and fishes were distributed, all the food came out. Jesus brought out what everyone had to share. The miracle was the lesson - we all have the good within us to share, and we will do so when someone starts the process.

Jesus forgave an unrepentant crowd from the cross.

Forgiveness can work this way too.

We cannot, as a nation, grant blanket forgiveness to people who are still intent on hitting us a every opportunity.

We cannot grant forgiveness as a nation, only as individuals. Governments cannot solve this problem. Religions can.

The Islamic people ( all groups actually) need to become far more active in opposing the radical elements in their faith. They are the ones with the best chance of identifying and exposing the most dangerous elements.
It is now looking like those closest to the Boston bombers at very least knew of their activities shortly after the attacks…and it would not surprise me if they had some advance knowledge. People like this rarely function in complete anonymity, and those closest need to speak up…then we can start a dialog…then we can begin the forgiveness and healing process.

We are in agreement, for the most part. It really depends, though, on the way the “opposing” is being done. The “radical elements” can actually be praised for their intent to do good, as this is always the case. Next, (immediately) they need to be firmly and gently invited to forgive their enemies. This probably has to come from people that they love and trust.

The problem for them is the same as it is for us. “How can we possibly forgive the U.S., which shows no sign of repenting or changing their ways?” This forgiveness is even more difficult when you have drones flying overhead. It can be done, though. Jesus did it from the cross.