Boy only alter servers

[gocardsgo11in11]

Masculinity is striving to love God above all else and lead others, spouses, children, girlfriends parishoners, to Heaven. That is manliness…

I don’t want to get in on this argument, but I think that that is really well said. That is the best way to sum up what manliness should be. I should reiterate though that this is not a form of becoming involved in this debate.

 

[theoda]

catholicstand.com/altar-servers-and-priests-from-the-view-of-the-child/
Thoughts?

Totally agree. For the past 2000 years there had been only boy altar servers. Why then in the middle of the 20th century was it changed? It seemed to coincide with the feminist movement.

St. John Berchmanns was the patron saint of altar boys, not girls. The decline of the priesthood could partially be because of allowing girls to be altar servers. Altar serving encouraged boys to become priests.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

I am not saying that is how i base things. Goodness. Calm down. I am telling you the general attitude of catholic male teens today.
Of corse, I am NOT a general catholic teen male.

No need to imply I have bad parents. That seems a bit immature…

And, are you even aware that altar serving IS supposed to be training for priesthood???
Im guessing you didnt even KNOW that.

It seems then, that vocations are a very good subject in this discussion…why wouldnt they be?

AND please be more charitable. Nobody is attacking you, quit flailing around defensively.

My feeling is that the model of altar serving as “training for the priesthood” or even a significant pointer toward it is seriously overstated, certainly in regards to the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

I was an altar boy for 8 years prior to the Council, with all that implies: memorization of multiple Latin responses, knowledge of gestures, ability to serve at the Low, High, and Solemn High Masses, exposure to multiple priests in the same parish (usually for the better, sometimes for the worst). Training that demanded serious knowledge of what and why things were happening as they did. Ability to serve at Benedictions, weddings, funerals. At least a vimp when the bishop came, maybe a full server.

In today’s average 1-priest parish where the Ordinary Form is said exclusively, the server’s role is basically limited to bringing the cruets and the basin over at the right time, and carrying the processional cross reasonably upright. Their responses are those of the whole congregation. Benedictions are rare and far between usually, half the Church weddings aren’t even Masses, and funerals are handled by retired men in the Lazarus ministry. This is most certainly not a criticism of the Ordinary Form, but just an honest appraisal in terms of the degree to which the contemporary altar serving experience is far less “involving” in both the liturgy and exposure to priestly functions. Obviously any given parish may have a richer server role than this, but in general terms I think what I’ve outlined is correct. And clearly serving at the Extraordinary Form is a different matter.

So I really have trouble with the concept that altar serving as generally experienced now is a particularly significant pre-priesthood kind of thing. What I DO believe is that service at the altar provides exposure to both the “life of the Church” in general, and specifically the concept of SERVICE to the Church and God’s people. And to me those are lessons that cross gender boundaries. The priest’s involvement with whatever “youth ministy” the parish may have I think provides a stronger direct influence than do the cruets.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I don’t want to get in on this argument, but I think that that is really well said. That is the best way to sum up what manliness should be. I should reiterate though that this is not a form of becoming involved in this debate.

To keep you out of the debate, I’ll just say that yes that is a good definition for manliness and you wouldn’t go wrong using such to define how you should act.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

LOLOLOLOL HAHAHAHAHA!!! Whew thanks for the laugh…

Manliness is notg about bruteness and rudeness. No wonder my generation has few real men. They are given a flase picture of manliness, one that is piggish and brutish and uncivilized, one that should be locked away ans replaced with femenism.

That is not manliness. Masculinity is striving to love God above all else and lead others, spouses, children, girlfriends parishoners, to Heaven. Being a fearless LEADER. A warrior for God. That is manliness. As you clearly do not know.

And to assume that charity is only for women? LOL…wow. Nope.

“Except unlike ice cream, altar boy serving was a manly, priestly way to express your manly faith. And when only girls do it sunday after sunday, well when i was young that was enough for me to see it as “sissifying” if you know what I mean. The manliness was GONE.”

So I can assume you can explain how your two above statements don’t actually conflict? How exactly do you incorporate your earlier comment about “the manliness was GONE” because of altar serving was “sissying” if you know what I mean" with your above?

Lastly, God doesn’t actually need warriors. If He did, He wouldn’t be God. The idea that a man is supposed to be a fearless leader and/or warrior for God is nonsense. If you wish to see a true expression of manliness, look to St. Francis of Assisi.

 

[ialsop]

My feeling is that the model of altar serving as “training for the priesthood” or even a significant pointer toward it is seriously overstated, certainly in regards to the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

I was an altar boy for 8 years prior to the Council, with all that implies: memorization of multiple Latin responses, knowledge of gestures, ability to serve at the Low, High, and Solemn High Masses, exposure to multiple priests in the same parish (usually for the better, sometimes for the worst). Training that demanded serious knowledge of what and why things were happening as they did. Ability to serve at Benedictions, weddings, funerals. At least a vimp when the bishop came, maybe a full server.

In today’s average 1-priest parish where the Ordinary Form is said exclusively, the server’s role is basically limited to bringing the cruets and the basin over at the right time, and carrying the processional cross reasonably upright. Their responses are those of the whole congregation. Benedictions are rare and far between usually, half the Church weddings aren’t even Masses, and funerals are handled by retired men in the Lazarus ministry. This is most certainly not a criticism of the Ordinary Form, but just an honest appraisal in terms of the degree to which the contemporary altar serving experience is far less “involving” in both the liturgy and exposure to priestly functions. Obviously any given parish may have a richer server role than this, but in general terms I think what I’ve outlined is correct. And clearly serving at the Extraordinary Form is a different matter.

So I really have trouble with the concept that altar serving as generally experienced now is a particularly significant pre-priesthood kind of thing. What I DO believe is that service at the altar provides exposure to both the “life of the Church” in general, and specifically the concept of SERVICE to the Church and God’s people. And to me those are lessons that cross gender boundaries. The priest’s involvement with whatever “youth ministy” the parish may have I think provides a stronger direct influence than do the cruets.

Well, unfortunately, you ARE correct. I wish i could train for a TLM. I went for training once and it was the deacon explaining the whole job of where to walk in about fifteen minutes to a class of fourth graders. And…I still had no idea how to serve. I needed better training. But, other people did just fine with that training. It was weird. I so wish i had access to a TLM.

 

[Book_Worm]

Q

??
Except unlike ice cream, altar boy serving was a manly, priestly way to express your manly faith. And when only girls do it sunday after sunday, well when i was young that was enough for me to see it as “sissifying” if you know what I mean. The manliness was GONE. The whole faith has been sissified to an extent that many guys I talk to at my high school dont take their faith seriously because they say it is “a girly thing”. No wonder we have a vocational crisis. No wonder we have few men at church.

And “boys never had an interest in the first place”? Have you seen a TLM? Or perhaps you are unaware of the past 2000 years of altar BOYS.

Do you have any idea how offensive your use of the words sissy and sissified is? Although it is generally indicative of an insecurity about one’s masculinity.

Like most fourteen-year-old children, you are very impressed with how well you understand the world, so much better than those far older than you do. Let me assure you that, having been there, I know you will be amazed at how much these old people will learn in the next ten years or so.

I’m sure that in your extensive knowledge of your religion, you have know that St. Paul said that in Christ there is no male or female. Your definition of masculinity implies that striving to love God above all things and leading others to Him is somehow limited to the male gender and overlooks the fact that women also love God above all things and often do a wonderful job of leading others (even men, believe it or not) to God.

If you want to bring others to Christ, using the arrogant and snarky tone you’ve used to fellow Catholics in this thread, probably won’t gain you much success, but I’m sure you’ll label this advice as mere femenism (sic) and ignore it.

 

[Weejee]

Boys only?

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

We should have lady priests, too!

 

[ialsop]

Q

Do you have any idea how offensive your use of the words sissy and sissified is? Although it is generally indicative of an insecurity about one’s masculinity.

Like most fourteen-year-old children, you are very impressed with how well you understand the world, so much better than those far older than you do. Let me assure you that, having been there, I know you will be amazed at how much these old people will learn in the next ten years or so.

I’m sure that in your extensive knowledge of your religion, you have know that St. Paul said that in Christ there is no male or female. Your definition of masculinity implies that striving to love God above all things and leading others to Him is somehow limited to the male gender and overlooks the fact that women also love God above all things and often do a wonderful job of leading others (even men, believe it or not) to God.

If you want to bring others to Christ, using the arrogant and snarky tone you’ve used to fellow Catholics in this thread, probably won’t gain you much success, but I’m sure you’ll label this advice as mere femenism (sic) and ignore it.

Where did I say women could not lead others to Christ? I never did. Not once. My argument was that that is a man’s job. It is. It is a man’s job not as opposed to being a woman’s job, but as opposed to men being indifferent.

It is very much also a woman’s job.

And by “sissified” I do not mean became womanly. I mean males not acting like real men. And real men, as i have stated, is bringing people to Heaven. Thats ALSO what being a real woman is, but thats not really the topic of conversation here. So when I say sissified, it is NOT sissified because girls do it, it is sissified because more guys dont. I am sorry if I offended you. but I assure you, i do NOT mean to downplay the role of a woman at all. I am just focusing more om men because I am a man and it is only my role to dictate myself not women. When I use “sissified”, again, I am NOT saying it is bad that girls love their faith, I am saying it is bad that guys dont altar serve more.

Dont you agree that guys should altar serve more rather that cower at what people might think of them? For the sake of God and service? That would be a real man, striving for holiness. As for women, it is really not my place to discuss the role of women as I am not one.

Also, your arguments could be used to justify female priesthood. Do you think women should be ordained too?

Again, sorry for offending you.
Isaac
PAX

 

[ialsop]

“Except unlike ice cream, altar boy serving was a manly, priestly way to express your manly faith. And when only girls do it sunday after sunday, well when i was young that was enough for me to see it as “sissifying” if you know what I mean. The manliness was GONE.”

So I can assume you can explain how your two above statements don’t actually conflict? How exactly do you incorporate your earlier comment about “the manliness was GONE” because of altar serving was “sissying” if you know what I mean" with your above?

Lastly, God doesn’t actually need warriors. If He did, He wouldn’t be God. The idea that a man is supposed to be a fearless leader and/or warrior for God is nonsense. If you wish to see a true expression of manliness, look to St. Francis of Assisi.

They do not contradict. I said it was “sissified” not because girls were in it, but because many guys were too afraid to do it.

And what, then, about today’s readings? Sounded like a battle plan to me. For a war.
What of the martyrs? St. Ignatius of Loyola??? BUT warrior does not equate to brute. Warrior equates to bringing people to Heaven. And thank you for your remark on St. Francis, he brought MANY to heaven and served MANY, he was a GREAT warrior.

 

[ialsop]

Boys only?

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

We should have lady priests, too!

Umm…no. Jesus did not ordain any women. Why? I dunno! But he is Jesus. And I am not going to contradict Him.

 

[ialsop]

“Except unlike ice cream, altar boy serving was a manly, priestly way to express your manly faith. And when only girls do it sunday after sunday, well when i was young that was enough for me to see it as “sissifying” if you know what I mean. The manliness was GONE.”

So I can assume you can explain how your two above statements don’t actually conflict? How exactly do you incorporate your earlier comment about “the manliness was GONE” because of altar serving was “sissying” if you know what I mean" with your above?

Lastly, God doesn’t actually need warriors. If He did, He wouldn’t be God. The idea that a man is supposed to be a fearless leader and/or warrior for God is nonsense. If you wish to see a true expression of manliness, look to St. Francis of Assisi.

I should ALSO clarify. I DONT THINK IT IS SISSIFIED!!! I AM SAYING WHAT I THOUGHT AS A FOURTH GRADER WHEN THIS IDEA WAS PRESENTED TO ME!!!

 

[theoda]

Boys only?

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

We should have lady priests, too!

I hope you are joking, but I’m not sure since you labeled yourself as Cafeteria Catholic.

 

[boomerang]

They do not contradict. I said it was “sissified” not because girls were in it, but because many guys were too afraid to do it.

And what, then, about today’s readings? Sounded like a battle plan to me. For a war.
What of the martyrs? St. Ignatius of Loyola??? BUT warrior does not equate to brute. Warrior equates to bringing people to Heaven. And thank you for your remark on St. Francis, he brought MANY to heaven and served MANY, he was a GREAT warrior.

You are correct about altar servers looking sissified, or feminized. I get what you are saying. It’s generally true that when women start moving into a profession, the men move out. There was a time when all or most store clerks, bank tellers and teachers were men. I’ll bet they were considered good, manly jobs back then. Then women took over these jobs. With the exception of teaching (at higher grade levels), the other jobs are not at all attractive to men, because they are looked upon as being women’s jobs. the same goes with boys and their view of altar servers, if they see a lot of girls doing it.

As for God not needing warriors, why are we called Church Militant? Why do they call it “fighting the good fight”? St. Francis could have been beheaded for preaching to the Muslims. Sounds like a military man to me!

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Im discerning priesthood, so I figure I SHOULD go do altar serving, but Im already 14 so I dunno…it would be weird to serve with a bunch of 9 year old girls all the time…

I think this is the kind of thing that priests need to hear: that boys are put off by girl altar servers. I wonder if they care more about fostering vocations or political correctness.

 

[Weejee]

Umm…no. Jesus did not ordain any women. Why? I dunno! But he is Jesus. And I am not going to contradict Him.

Jesus used all men, but that was because it was the custom in his day. He had a lot of respect for women, and I don’t think today he would say no to them as priests.

Slightly off topic: But sigh I don’t think that’s going to solve the vocation shortage.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Im discerning priesthood, so I figure I SHOULD go do altar serving, but Im already 14 so I dunno…it would be weird to serve with a bunch of 9 year old girls all the time…

Do not blame little girls for you not doing something. Good grief. If you really wanted to be an altar server, you would totally be doing it. Maybe if little boys weren’t so afraid of doing an activity with girls, there would be more altar boys. Heck, if you weren’t so scared of 9 year old girls, there would be at least one altar boy in your parish. And maybe other boys would follow in your footsteps. Be the change you want to see in the world.

 

[randomusername]

In my school boys still served as well as girls and there was no worry about sissification since it was a small school with small classes so we were friends with all the girls as well as each other so we didn’t mind serving with them and always since we were all doing it anyone who was worrying about looking strange serving with only girls had their fears removed(and in our school the priest would come into the class to see who was interested so you could always see if your friends were, etc.).

But no one really treated it as discerning for priesthood. I think most people after the first year of it only continued because their friends were continuing and their friends only continued it because of the same reason. Most people then regretted doing it during the year because they’d have to miss some events that their mates were going to(since not everyone would be serving at the same times) or something because of the serving but still continued the next year because their friends were doing it.

 

[randomusername]

Do not blame little girls for you not doing something. Good grief. If you really wanted to be an altar server, you would totally be doing it. Maybe if little boys weren’t so afraid of doing an activity with girls, there would be more altar boys. Heck, if you weren’t so scared of 9 year old girls, there would be at least one altar boy in your parish. And maybe other boys would follow in your footsteps. Be the change you want to see in the world.

He’s not a little boy though. It’d be very awkward to be serving with 9 year olds. And people expect the altar servers to be children, not mid teens.

 

[Brendan]

Jesus used all men, but that was because it was the custom in his day. He had a lot of respect for women, and I don’t think today he would say no to them as priests.:

It wasn’t the custom of His day to talk to Samaratain women at wells, or for religious men to dine with tax collectors and prostitutes.

If you think the Christ felt, in any way, bound by the customs of His day, you have no read the Bible much.

There is no doubt that if Christ desired women priests, he would have ordained them as well.