Boy only alter servers

[kozlosap]

Indeed.

And yep! I am wanting to become either a Jesuit priest or a Diocesan priest.

Congrats!!! I have attended a huge JESUIT Parish for many years and I cannot express in mere words how much I have grown spiritually. You need at least a BA/BS before you apply. The education you receive will be beyond that of 99.9% of the rest of us! The 5 Holy priests that are assigned to our Parish all have the equivalent of doctorates. By the time you are ordained you will be over thirty. Good luck in your quest to serve!

 

[hwriggles4]

Congrats!!! I have attended a huge JESUIT Parish for many years and I cannot express in mere words how much I have grown spiritually. You need at least a BA/BS before you apply. The education you receive will be beyond that of 99.9% of the rest of us! The 5 Holy priests that are assigned to our Parish all have the equivalent of doctorates. By the time you are ordained you will be over thirty. Good luck in your quest to serve!

Yes, the Jesuits are scholarly. I believe in since the Jesuits are teachers (i.e. mathematics, chemistry, physics, english) one has to have some kind of a degree in a field where the Jesuit will be teaching. Part of the formation as a scholastic is to be a teacher. Many do this at Jesuit high schools.

My current parish was a Jesuit-run parish until 2003. The New Orleans Province turned the parish over to the local diocese in 2003 due to the fact that there weren’t enough Jesuit priests to continue staffing our parish. In 2003, the pastor at the time - an old good Jesuit - mentioned that out of 250 Jesuits in the New Orleans Province, 103 were 70+. However, in 2014, I have heard that some of the Jesuit provinces have seen an increase in vocations since 2003, with many of the younger Jesuit novices and scholastics being more “orthodox” than the older Jesuits. I even remember Fr. Benedict Groschel saying on Sunday Night Live a few years back that he would like to live to be 100 to see the Jesuits continue their upward renewal. Unfortunately, Fr. Groeschel died last month.

Ialslop, I am glad you have been an altar boy. One thing I remember as an altar boy in the late 70’s through the mid-1980’s was I got to see more of the “day-to-day” of what a priest does. Personally, I think that is a way for a boy to give “witness” to the vocation of a priest.

 

[PHSshamrock]

Not sure. Thats what I want to know as well. Anybody here know?

Go for it! I know several guys who were trained in High School and some even in college!

 

[bobballen_18]

I don’t recall Jesus telling Mary M that she couldn’t be a disciple. And did male disciples leave because the women were involved.

I’ll not comment on the rest of your post - but this part stuck out to me, so I wanted to say this: You’re right, Jesus didn’t tell Mary Magdalen she couldn’t be a disciple. In the same vein, no one who advocates male-only altar servers has said that women can’t be disciples. You’re equating altar-serving with “being a disciple”, and I believe that’s a false comparison. Of course, altar-serving is one way in which people may show their discipleship, but male-only altar serving does not mean women are prohibited from “being disciples”. Advocates of male-only altar serving do not maintain any argument that claims men are any better than women or are more capable of serving God or that altar-servers are better than non-altar servers or anything like that.

Although I am a supporter of male-only altar servers, and would probably only allow male altar servers if I end up as a priest, I don’t necessarily see a big problem with allowing female servers in the Ordinary Form. However, if I celebrated the Extraordinary Form (which I intend to do should I become a priest), I would not allow female servers for that, and actually, if I’m not mistaken, they have never been allowed at the Latin Mass. However, I’m not sure I can fully explain the reasoning behind that.

Another thought of mine on whether or not to allow female servers in general: As has been stated, the official position is that the tradition of male altar servers is to be upheld and that female servers can be allowed but only if necessary and the bishop sees fit to allow them (which basically all bishops have, although of course not all priests are required to allow them). Despite this being the case, altar servers in general are not required at Mass. If I become a priest and ever have to deal with a shortage of altar-servers, I will probably just see how celebrating Mass without servers goes, before I would even consider allowing female altar-servers. I think it is so important to maintain a solid group of young guys, and would say the same about young girls too. I realize many guys have stated they have/had no problem serving with girls, and that’s fine, as long as they are able to maintain their focus. And of course I have heard the stories, some on this thread, of how girls enjoyed their experience and felt closer to God through serving, and that’s great. I don’t really have anything to say about that, other than to make the observation that if a parish does have male-only altar servers, then there must be a similar program for girls as well, and the reasons must be made clear to the girls of why they are not being allowed to serve. That is, it must be made clear that girls are not any less special than boys, etc. etc.

 

[Ryan_Orr]

All due respect intended, but as a boy altar server not out of high school yet, I can tell you from personal experience that girl altar servers suck, excuse the bluntness. They simply don’t have the mindset for it, and they can be quite stuck up about it. I’m not speaking for all of them obviously, only for a great majority, and the ones around here.
As for boys losing interest, for me, its more than just that.

I used to serve at All Saints Parish, VA. Then they allowed girls to serve, and they also treat their servers lousy. They never give them any opportunities. If I asked, it was for “legal reasons”. Thanks a bunch. I once asked for a hammer or blunt object to knock a nail back into a wall for a crucifix stand that was becoming, *dangerously *loose… and I couldnt because of “legal reasons”? I’m 15, and I can’t deal with that? I quit serving there afterwards.
Holy Trinity Parish is much better. They have stuck to the traditional boys only rule, and as a result, almost every single boy in the enormous parish that I know is an altar server.

To me, there is a direct correlation between the two parishes. One saves the solemnity and sacredness of serving to the boys/men. The other doesn’t. I think when girls are added to the jumble, it loses some of its value and respect.
Also… in addition in bullet form:

#1: as a boy, it is VERY distracting to have a girl constantly on the altar. (add to that she’s pretty, and you can’t focus on Mass anymore)
#2: As said above, they just don’t have the feel for serving as boys do. Men attend to other men better than women can. Its like when a man is mad, another man knows how to deal with it better than a woman can. Its just a simple universal “truth”.
#3: It can be a bit insulting and/or degrading sometimes. If a girl is serving up on the altar when you would otherwise be up there (she has replaced you), its a bit upsetting because deep down when you really look at it, altar serving is a man’s job.
#4: Adding on to #3, and possibly my biggest issue… take a look at this pattern and tell me what is out of place, and why?: ** Pope, Cardinal, Bishop, Priest, Deacon, Altar Server. **

+JMJ+

 

[ialsop]

All due respect intended, but as a boy altar server not out of high school yet, I can tell you from personal experience that girl altar servers suck, excuse the bluntness. They simply don’t have the mindset for it, and they can be quite stuck up about it. I’m not speaking for all of them obviously, only for a great majority, and the ones around here.
As for boys losing interest, for me, its more than just that.

I used to serve at All Saints Parish, VA. Then they allowed girls to serve, and they also treat their servers lousy. They never give them any opportunities. If I asked, it was for “legal reasons”. Thanks a bunch. I once asked for a hammer or blunt object to knock a nail back into a wall for a crucifix stand that was becoming, *dangerously *loose… and I couldnt because of “legal reasons”? I’m 15, and I can’t deal with that? I quit serving there afterwards.
Holy Trinity Parish is much better. They have stuck to the traditional boys only rule, and as a result, almost every single boy in the enormous parish that I know is an altar server.

To me, there is a direct correlation between the two parishes. One saves the solemnity and sacredness of serving to the boys/men. The other doesn’t. I think when girls are added to the jumble, it loses some of its value and respect.
Also… in addition in bullet form:

#1: as a boy, it is VERY distracting to have a girl constantly on the altar. (add to that she’s pretty, and you can’t focus on Mass anymore)
#2: As said above, they just don’t have the feel for serving as boys do. Men attend to other men better than women can. Its like when a man is mad, another man knows how to deal with it better than a woman can. Its just a simple universal “truth”.
#3: It can be a bit insulting and/or degrading sometimes. If a girl is serving up on the altar when you would otherwise be up there (she has replaced you), its a bit upsetting because deep down when you really look at it, altar serving is a man’s job.
#4: Adding on to #3, and possibly my biggest issue… take a look at this pattern and tell me what is out of place, and why?: ** Pope, Cardinal, Bishop, Priest, Deacon, Altar Server. **

+JMJ+

Im with you brother but beware! You just called down a lot of bashing from others here!
But I agree 100 percent. I cant altar serve because a really attractive girl constantly does so.

 

[boomerang]

Im with you brother but beware! You just called down a lot of bashing from others here!
But I agree 100 percent. I cant altar serve because a really attractive girl constantly does so.

You won’t hear any bashing from me. I totally agree with Ryan’s post. People who ignore the differences between males and females have placed their heads where the sun doesn’t shine, in my opinion. Wanting something to be a certain way does not make it so.

 

[Ryan_Orr]

Yes! Thank you, both of you!

Forgive me everyone for being so blunt and openly controversial. Sometimes I cross a line. But other times, I think people really need to hear it the way it is (or should be), and that involves not sugar coating it. I’m not insulting girls’ intelligence here, but certain sacred jobs belong to certain people.

God bless,
Ryan

PS, I’m a Catholic conservative in a haywire society: this doesnt mean I’m against women’s rights. It means I think what is right should be right and what is left should be left alone.

+JMJ+

 

[bobballen_18]

Honestly, Ryan, I agree with like 95% of your post. I am all for male-only altar servers. I just wanted to point out a couple things.

They simply don’t have the mindset for it, and they can be quite stuck up about it. I’m not speaking for all of them obviously, only for a great majority, and the ones around here.

I think this is unfair. I myself have witnessed boys who “don’t have the mindset” for it - in fact, I don’t want to admit this, but the parish to which I just moved has male-only altar servers (although they just started this a little over a year ago) and there hasn’t been an increase of servers and, to be frank, at least half of the small group that we do have doesn’t “have the mindset for it”. I don’t know, as I said, I’m all for male-only altar servers, but I don’t think “girls don’t have the mindset for it” is a good reason to put forth for having a male-only system.

#1: as a boy, it is VERY distracting to have a girl constantly on the altar. (add to that she’s pretty, and you can’t focus on Mass anymore)
#2: As said above, they just don’t have the feel for serving as boys do. Men attend to other men better than women can. Its like when a man is mad, another man knows how to deal with it better than a woman can. Its just a simple universal “truth”.
#3: It can be a bit insulting and/or degrading sometimes. If a girl is serving up on the altar when you would otherwise be up there (she has replaced you), its a bit upsetting because deep down when you really look at it, altar serving is a man’s job.
#4: Adding on to #3, and possibly my biggest issue… take a look at this pattern and tell me what is out of place, and why?: Pope, Cardinal, Bishop, Priest, Deacon, Altar Server.

#1 - I don’t exactly like to use this argument either, but really, it’s true.
#2 - I think this is a better way to frame the “girls don’t have the mindset for it” argument, although I still wouldn’t use this to argue against girl altar-servers.
#3 - I don’t know if I would use the words “insulting” or “degrading” but in general I agree with this.
#4 - Now this was the other main thing I wanted to comment on. The whole reasoning behind allowing girls as altar-servers kind of rests on this. In your list, Altar Server is the only one which does not require Holy Orders. It is true that Acolyte used to be (or technically still is) a minor order, and only men are to be Instituted Acolytes, but in general, because no degree of “orders” are needed to be an altar-server today, this is why it is open to both sexes. I’m not saying I agree that this is a good reason to allow girls, but I do agree that it makes sense that it is open to girls.

My whole issue with altar girls really just lies behind tradition. Yes, I’m one of those crazy traditionalist-leaning people…I think there is a problem with abandoning “noble tradition” such as this. I read an article recently about the attitude of many today toward tradition and how that is detrimental to the Church. I mean, it’s serving at the Altar - it’s got to be respected! It is my opinion that “tradition” is a sufficient reason to not allow girl altar-servers. I know many people wouldn’t agree with that, but oh well. The Church obviously agrees to some extent, since priests do not have to allow girl altar-servers.

 

[boomerang]

Yes! Thank you, both of you!

Forgive me everyone for being so blunt and openly controversial. Sometimes I cross a line. But other times, I think people really need to hear it the way it is (or should be), and that involves not sugar coating it. I’m not insulting girls’ intelligence here, but certain sacred jobs belong to certain people.

God bless,
Ryan

PS, I’m a Catholic conservative in a haywire society: this doesnt mean I’m against women’s rights. It means I think what is right should be right and what is left should be left alone.

+JMJ+

Yep. “Male and female He created them” They are equal in the eyes of God, but they are not the same.

 

[felsguy]

All due respect intended, but as a boy altar server not out of high school yet, I can tell you from personal experience that girl altar servers suck, excuse the bluntness. They simply don’t have the mindset for it, and they can be quite stuck up about it. I’m not speaking for all of them obviously, only for a great majority, and the ones around here.
As for boys losing interest, for me, its more than just that.

I used to serve at All Saints Parish, VA. Then they allowed girls to serve, and they also treat their servers lousy. They never give them any opportunities. If I asked, it was for “legal reasons”. Thanks a bunch. I once asked for a hammer or blunt object to knock a nail back into a wall for a crucifix stand that was becoming, *dangerously *loose… and I couldnt because of “legal reasons”? I’m 15, and I can’t deal with that? I quit serving there afterwards.
Holy Trinity Parish is much better. They have stuck to the traditional boys only rule, and as a result, almost every single boy in the enormous parish that I know is an altar server.

To me, there is a direct correlation between the two parishes. One saves the solemnity and sacredness of serving to the boys/men. The other doesn’t. I think when girls are added to the jumble, it loses some of its value and respect.
Also… in addition in bullet form:

#1: as a boy, it is VERY distracting to have a girl constantly on the altar. (add to that she’s pretty, and you can’t focus on Mass anymore)
#2: As said above, they just don’t have the feel for serving as boys do. Men attend to other men better than women can. Its like when a man is mad, another man knows how to deal with it better than a woman can. Its just a simple universal “truth”.
#3: It can be a bit insulting and/or degrading sometimes. If a girl is serving up on the altar when you would otherwise be up there (she has replaced you), its a bit upsetting because deep down when you really look at it, altar serving is a man’s job.
#4: Adding on to #3, and possibly my biggest issue… take a look at this pattern and tell me what is out of place, and why?: ** Pope, Cardinal, Bishop, Priest, Deacon, Altar Server. **

+JMJ+

Here’s a suggestion. Print out and save a copy of your comments. Then a few years from now when you have fallen head over heels for one of these young ladies, show it to her and then come back and tell us her reaction.

 

[ialsop]

Here’s a suggestion. Print out and save a copy of your comments. Then a few years from now when you have fallen head over heels for one of these young ladies, show it to her and then come back and tell us her reaction.

SIGH. Wow…sad mindset we have today. If it could ever detriment your chance of somebody falling in love with you, dont do it!
How silly, really…

Its apparently ONLY k to say anything if the ladies approve first, lol

 

[Ryan_Orr]

Good glory I received an infraction for my post. Guess some moderators are too sensitive and itchy nowadays.

First Amendment much?

Anyway, my apologies for anyone who took time to comment on what I had there before. The feedback and discussion was very interesting and I enjoyed taking part in it.

Blessings,
Ryan

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Good glory I received an infraction for my post. Guess some moderators are too sensitive and itchy nowadays.

First Amendment much?

Anyway, my apologies for anyone who took time to comment on what I had there before. The feedback and discussion was very interesting and I enjoyed taking part in it.

Blessings,
Ryan

The 1st Amendment doesn’t actually apply.

 

[Ryan_Orr]

Did you know which post I’m talking about?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Did you know which post I’m talking about?

I don’t need to. The 1st Amendment protections don’t actually apply to comments made on this site.

 

[Ryan_Orr]

Okey dokey. Good to know.

 

[chimo]

In the Orthodox Church it has always been boys. We have about 10-15 boys at my Parish who could serve on any given Sunday. I believe and this is not a knock down on the Catholic Mass but certain changes after Vatican II when the new Mass came into effect there were other changes which changed the landscape of what type of piety and worship there would be. By putting the priest facing towards the people as well as establishing an Altar that would face the people actually put less regard to the piety and worship which the Old Mass had given. The tendency for the new Mass is not much is necessary to actually celebrate it. The older Mass had more duties to perform and needed more participants. In the Orthodox Divine Liturgy the sense of wonder is still evident when the Liturgy is involving the priest, deacon, sub-deacon and the altar boys in unison. I do not find this wonder and awe when I am at the Catholic Mass. There seems to be something missing and I question the new Mass which had changed too much the landscape by which the Church was so used to. Perhaps a re-evaluation of the Mass towards its earlier function will help to enhanced the landscape once more to find the same level of piety and worship which the older Mass was famous for. When there is more piety and duties to perform perhaps you will see more Altar boys. I don’t know for sure. At one Parish where my father was the sacristan we had between 15 to 30 boys to help serve with the priest every year and incidentally it was a High Church of England Parish which still followed the rule of facing the East. Our Masses were very much like the old style Mass of the Catholic Church with ours always in English. This type of setting had always attracted many of the boys. Of course with the changes in music and the way the Catholic Mass was shortened it seemed to me that a gradual loss of what the older Mass had was not there in the same level. This is only my observation. I do know how to celebrate the Catholic Mass but I do find it to be much quicker service and if I can say too relaxed for one when you want to have more at a Mass that wants to give us the Lord Jesus. Again this is only my own evaluation as I have grown up to participate into the Mass and Divine Liturgy with greater participation than with the modern Catholic Mass.

 

[tower_of_babel]

at my parish, always been a mixture of boys and girls.

I used to do it, would like to do it again, but not really suitable now im 18.

 

[on_the_hill]

I think it’s entirely reasonable to blame the priest shortage that began 40 or 50 years ago on nine year old girls’ being allowed to serve 25 or 30 years ago.

:banghead: