Boy Scouts Expected to End Ban on Gay Leaders

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You understand that “sexual disorder” is just a man-made label that changes back and forth over time. Both of these proclivities are disorders sexual desires. Homosexuality was once called a disorder and pedophilia will likely cease to be a disorder. Surely pornography is not considered the disorder that it is. Yet all such things are disordered and are equivalent manifestations of the same deadly sin. Likewise, philandering is in the same category and has the same root.

I would say the objection made is based either in the idea that sexual lust is fixed (something we understand is false when dealing with a rapist or pedophile), or that homosexuality is not disorder of sexual lust, something contrary to Catholic teaching.
Homosexuality is related to sexual arousal of adults by and to adults. Pedophilia requires sexual arousal by adults to children. There is no evidence to support the claim that the latter will “cease to be a disorder.” I’ve used “disordered” in reference to medical and psychological frameworks – you’ve used it as it’s used by the Church. This is equivocation. As the BSA is not a Catholic organization, it need not abide by Catholic teachings. Catholics, of course, are welcome to disavow themselves of the organization should they believe that doing so is in keeping with their faith.
 
I’m still confused about why this is an issue now and wasn’t before. There have always been gay BSA leaders. In fact, gays and lesbians are present everywhere – as schoolteachers, coaches, bus drivers, religious ed teachers… But now that they’re able to say out loud that they’re gay or that they have “same-sex attraction,” people are up in arms.
 
So you are saying that it is impossible for a teen to come out as gay?
As I said they twisted the definition of pedophilia and homosexual so that it is impossible for a homosexual to molest children.
 
Homosexuality is related to sexual arousal of adults by and to adults.
So all the homosexual men and women who claim that “even as a child, I knew” weren’t really homosexual? At what age did they “become” homosexual? If the age of consent is lowered, does that mean that such people would “become” homosexual sooner? By what mechanism does an arbitrary legal boundary line affect sexual orientation?
Pedophilia requires sexual arousal by adults to children.
In a clinical sense, yes. In the common sense - such as the “pedophile priest” label - it simply means attraction to anyone under 18. To be more accurate, one can say that ephebophilia or pederasty are much more common and accepted among homosexual men than among heterosexual men - just look at the “twink” phenomenon.
 
As I said they twisted the definition of pedophilia and homosexual so that it is impossible for a homosexual to molest children.
I’m not sure who “they” are here but a 16-year-old boy being attracted to another 16-year-old boy isn’t defined as pedophilia by any reputable scientific institution. Nor should it be.
 
I’m not sure who “they” are here but a 16-year-old boy being attracted to another 16-year-old boy isn’t defined as pedophilia by any reputable scientific institution. Nor should it be.
But if an adult male molests them that is pedophilia?
 
Pedophilia refers to sexual attraction to prepubescent children – think 11 and younger typically.
Unless one is speaking of the problem the Church had with homosexual priests - then the age limit goes up to 18. :rolleyes:
 
This discussion is about BSA leaders, is it not? We’re then discussing adults.
If we are discussing a definition of homosexuality, then it would be appropriate that we understand how all parties in the conversation understand the term.

So the question still stands, if your definition of homosexuality only includes sexual attraction by adults towards other adults, it would seem that teens are excluded from your definition. It would then logically follow that a teen could not truthfully come out as ‘gay’.

Is that a correct understanding of your definition of what homosexuality is?
 
If we are discussing a definition of homosexuality, then it would be appropriate that we understand how all parties in the conversation understand the term.

So the question still stands, if your definition of homosexuality only includes sexual attraction by adults towards other adults, it would seem that teens are excluded from your definition. It would then logically follow that a teen could not truthfully come out as ‘gay’.

Is that a correct understanding of your definition of what homosexuality is?
No, the question does not still stand – it’s been answered in other posts. A 16-year-old can identify as homosexual just as he can identify as heterosexual. If he describes being sexually attracted to a prepubescent male, then we’re dealing with pedophilia. But again, as we’re discussing BSA leaders here (who by definition must be adults) the question of how a 16-year-old identifies in terms of sexual orientation is moot.
 
No, the question does not still stand – it’s been answered in other posts. A 16-year-old can identify as homosexual just as he can identify as heterosexual. If he describes being sexually attracted to a prepubescent male, then we’re dealing with pedophilia. But again, as we’re discussing BSA leaders here (who by definition must be adults) the question of how a 16-year-old identifies in terms of sexual orientation is moot.
OK, then attraction of one post-pubescent male to another post-pubescent male is homosexuality then.
 
No, the question does not still stand – it’s been answered in other posts. A 16-year-old can identify as homosexual just as he can identify as heterosexual. If he describes being sexually attracted to a prepubescent male, then we’re dealing with pedophilia. But again, as we’re discussing BSA leaders here (who by definition must be adults) the question of how a 16-year-old identifies in terms of sexual orientation is moot.
It’s not at all moot. To be a scout, a boy must be between 10 and 18 years old. Simple math shows us that the majority of scouts will be teenagers, putting them outside the clinical definition of pedophilia if a Scouter engages in sexual activity with them.

Is an 18-year-old who engages in sexual activity with a 15-year-old a pedophile?
What if the older person is 25?
What if they are 35?

Exactly where is the line between homosexual pederasty/ephebophilia - something acceptable in the LGBTQOMGWTFBBQ “community” - and pedophilia?
 
It’s not at all moot. To be a scout, a boy must be between 10 and 18 years old. Simple math shows us that the majority of scouts will be teenagers, putting them outside the clinical definition of pedophilia if a Scouter engages in sexual activity with them.

Is an 18-year-old who engages in sexual activity with a 15-year-old a pedophile?
What if the older person is 25?
What if they are 35?

Exactly where is the line between homosexual pederasty/ephebophilia - something acceptable in the LGBTQOMGWTFBBQ “community” - and pedophilia?
Its very simple-"no true homosexual "would molest a boy-post pubescent or not.
 
He backed up his argument with citations. Where are yours?
Here you go.

One of the world’s foremost experts on the subject of pedophilia is Fred Berlin. Here’s a summation of his view:
According to Dr. Fred Berlin, a Johns Hopkins University professor who founded the National Institute for the Study, Prevention and Treatment of Sexual Trauma in Baltimore, Md., pedophilia is a distinct sexual orientation marked by persistent, sometimes exclusive, attraction to prepubescent children.
Source: Time Magazine

The John Jay Report on the “causes and contexts” of the sexual abuse crisis in the Catholic church includes a finding that will probably surprise many observers. As David Gibson states in a piece on Religion News Service:
The researchers found no statistical evidence that gay priests were more likely than straight priests to abuse minors—a finding that undermines a favorite talking point of many conservative Catholics. The disproportionate number of adolescent male victims was about opportunity, not preference or pathology, the report states.
Source: No easy answers to ‘cause’ of Catholic abuse scandal

The US Catholic Bishops commissioned a study on priestly child sex abuse from John Jay College. John Jay researcher Margaret Smith reported back to the Bishops on early findings from their study.
We do not find a connection between homosexual identity and the increased likelihood of subsequent abuse from the data that we have right now … It’s important to separate the sexual identity and the behavior. Someone can commit sexual acts that might be of a homosexual nature but not have a homosexual identity.
Source USA Today

John Jay Report

See also: American Magazine - The National Catholic Review
John Jay Report: On Not Blaming Homosexual Priests

Even Pope Benedict XVI has said the same thing during his visit to the US:
I do not wish to talk about homosexuality, but about pedophilia,** which is a different thing.**"
Blaming the Wrong People for the Sexual Abuse Crisis, Huffington Post
and
Pope Benedict XVI Arrives-in-us Fox News

Pope Benedict’s point has been established by mainstream social scientists for over 30 years:

Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation (UC Davis - Univ of Calf)
 
I’ll try to deal with the objections one at a time.
You assume that only homosexual men (men attracted to other adult men) molest boys. In reality, only a tiny fraction of boy molesters, at most equivalent to the average proportion of homosexuals in the general population, show any interest in other adult men.

You can, of course, simply define any man who molests a boy as ‘homosexual’ and produce convenient statistics. I may as well assume that all those catholic priests who molested children did so because of their Catholicism.
You’ve created an idiosyncratic definition of homosexuality that fits your purposes but is not in accordance with common usage or medico-legal terminology…

*ho·mo·sex·u·al
ˌhōməˈsekSH(əw)əl/
adjective

1.(of a person) sexually attracted to people of one’s own sex.

noun: homosexual; plural noun: homosexuals
2.
a person who is sexually attracted to people of their own sex.*

A sex act with someone of the same sex is a homosexual act, by definition.

One someone is attracted to another male, regardless of age, he is a homosexual or a bisexual. If he commits a sexual act with that other person (regardless of age), then it is a homosexual act.

If he is interested in sexual relations with boys, all the way up to the legal age of consent, he is both a homosexual and a pederast.

Pederast is the technical term for a homosexual interested in sex with boys. As most gay men use the term, it refers to teenagers but can also include pre-pubescent boys.

As we are dealing with important topics here (the safety of youth), it will help us if we use precise terminology. Pederasty is evil, as is pedophila in general, but generalized pedophilia is not the issue we are discussing here, it is pederasty, so we should avoid willful attempts to confuse the issue by misuse of language.
In reality, only a tiny fraction of boy molesters, at most equivalent to the average proportion of homosexuals in the general population, show any interest in other adult men.
Source?
But yes. The truth is that study after study has shown that homosexuality (attraction to other adults of the same sex) has no correlation to child abuse. Homophobia, not so much.
No. The studies I cited (and others) show that 1/3 of the child molestations are committed by homosexuals, a number that is far out of proportion to their incidence in the population. That is called a “strong correlation.”

Why do you feel that a phobic response to homosexuals is correlated to child abuse? Do you have any kind of a source for that?
And there is this strangely widespread desire to blindly blame homosexuals for such acts, as opposed to looking at the truth and protecting the children. Persecuting homosexuals is apparently more important than the welfare of children.🤷
I took pains to point out that not all homosexual men are involved in, or would countenance, sexual contact with minors. A significant number would, and many prominent figures in the gay movement have idealized it and demanded the end of legal restrictions against it. (I can provide you examples if you need them.) Many gay men would consider sex with a 9 year old deeply offensive and immoral, but might consider sex with a 16-year old male acceptable if he considers the boy “willing” - certainly, the gay cruising zones in most major urban areas have their share of minors in them, and the gay hook-up websites have facilitated more than one sexual contact between an adult gay male and a teenager.

I consider calumny a sin, but a sexual offense against a minor is a greater sin. I am honestly sorry if gay men who are not a threat to minors feel stigmatized or have their feelings hurt because I and others feel they should not be involved in scouting, but it’s not like we’re talking about the right to vote or drive a motor vehicle. A gay man who is honest will admit that the circumstances and prudence require that they forgo the privilege of being a Boy Scout leader.
 
They certainly pay individual membership fees. As Brendan notes, “National Catholic Committee on Scouting” is a registered trademark of the BSA. And if you read their “About Us” page on their web site you will see that their mission is to promote the BSA program among Catholics and to advise the BSA.

So, at most they will express disappointment in a BSA decision, but add that “Scouting” – by which they mean BSA mainstream scouting – “is still the best youth character development program yadda yadda yadda”.
Thank you. And that should cause all of us to call upon Catholic organizations to withdraw from the BSA. Catholics should not materially support organizations that have embraced anti-life, anti-family mindsets. What happens when Catholic youth go to jamborees and openly gay Scout Masters are potentially with their partners? The BSA has lost its moral compass, and we should have no part in it!

Troops of Saint George should be considered a destination for faithful Catholic scouts and their families. I’m sure there are other alternatives as well.
 
I took pains to point out that not all homosexual men are involved in, or would countenance, sexual contact with minors. A significant number would, and many prominent figures in the gay movement have idealized it and demanded the end of legal restrictions against it.
How did you get to “significant number would” and “many prominent figures in the gay movement have idealized it” Define your parameters.

How many gays are in the “gay movement?”

How do you identify the "prominent figures? and who are they? If they are prominent you should be able to tell us about them, right? By making such statements it’s obvious that you have spent a lot of time researching them, right?
 
I only want to point out a couple things. First, a higher number of victims doesn’t equate to a higher number of abusers.
That is correct and as I pointed out, male homosexual molesters have a much higher number of victims than heterosexual abusers do (or lesbian molesters, for that matter).

This is in line with what I stated in my post - homosexuality represents a dynamic of sexual behavior that is unmoderated by sexual complementarity.

Men do seem to have an desire to have sex with as many partners as possible. I will leave it up to the reader to decide if this is due to the fallen nature of man, or an evolutionarily-derived desire to spread one’s DNA far and wide. Or maybe both.

Normal men (and I hesitate to use that term, but homosexuality is anything but a baseline behavior) quickly find after reaching puberty that desirable women will not countenance a male having multiple sexual partners, so they usually have to mitigate their natural horndoggery. (That’s a scientific term.) The innate (or as I feel, God-given) human desire to have and raise a child, and to be a father, also requires that one cleave to one woman and create an environment where that child can grow and be safe.

Once complementarity is abandoned for a disordered desire to have other men as sexual partners, one enters into an inherently sterile relationship from which no children can be produced unless one crosses the line, temporarily, back over to the heterosexual world. Without the potential (or even the possibility) to produce children within a relationship, relationships become more transitory and less committed. We would expect a higher degree of break-ups within homosexual relationships (married or cohabitant), and that is just what we see. The fundamental anthropology of humanity is to have children, and so we see attempts to adopt children, or to use surrogates or IVF, by gay couples, but without even the possibility of having children, that fundamental bond that forms marriage (even in heterosexual marriages where childbearing is difficult or not possible) is not available to gay couples.

Currently, the divorce rate for homosexual marriages in the U.S. is the same as that for normal marriages,which is very high considering how recent a phenomenon it is and how much longer heterosexual couples have been around to get divorced. If such marriages were as stable as those for heterosexuals, one would expect the rate to be much lower. (washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/12/15/same-sex-divorce-rate-not-as-low-as-it-seemed/)

If we look overseas where civil unions have been legal in some countries for a longer period of time, we can see that the rate of break-ups/civil union dissolutions is much higher than for normal marriages. In Scandinavian countries, where such legally-defined relationships and dissolutions have existed for about 2 decades, looked at over 1,500 same-sex unions. After controlling for age, region, country of birth, education, and duration of the partnership, male couples in Sweden were 35 percent more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples, and lesbian partners were over 200 percent more likely to divorce.

Again, the lack of ability to produce offspring, as well as the natural need for complementary sexual dynamics, does not bode well for gay marriage in the states. Adopting children (whatever the effects may be on the children) may reinforce a more stable relationship in same-sex couples, but even if their sexual needs are met by a same-sex partner, it is unlikely that the emotional needs will have the same preservative effect on a relationship as in a normal marriage.

We also see a higher incidence of gay marriages between lesbians (about 2/3 of all gay marriages) than males (about 1/3), which would make sense, as the natural nature of women is to bond and seek shelter within a committed relationship - a desire which is frequently stronger in women than men.

Which is all a round-about way of saying that homosexual molesters, or pederasts, will show the same level of desire for multiple sexual partners as a homosexual who is solely interested in other men.
Secondly, the stats are seriously old. (Got anything fairly current?)
This is not to say I don’t agree with the conclusion. But the logic is off a bit and methods of study have likely improved since the 1980s.
As has the politicization of the social sciences, wouldn’t you agree? Research results that in any way can be construed as depicting homosexuality in a negative fashion can now have a damaging effect on one’s academic career.

I’ll see what I can come up with for you. Most of my journal studies are on an external HD I will have to find and hook up.
 
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