Boy Scouts to allow gay youths to join

[ringil]

Sure it is, for reasons you can find all over CAF.

No it’s not. Homosexuality is not a mental disorder.

It is not a coded diagnostic entity within the mental heath community. It does not exist.

 

[signit]

If the scouts become an organization in which it is considered acceptable for scouts to openly declare themselves homosexual, then in time the whole organization will become limited to homosexuals.

And it won’t just be parents “preventing them” from joining the scouts. There are not many young men who want to be associated with a group that is considered “gay”. I do realize those who want society (and oftentimes, the Church) to consider homosexuality a variant of normal will think differently.

I just can’t see that happening.

I just don’t think young men these days have such a strong dislike for gays that they’d avoid becoming a group that might include some of them.

 

[fix]

Practice what you preach, my friend. Can you look a 10 yr old boy in the eyes and tell him he is “evil” because he has homosexual tendencies? If you can then God have mercy on your soul.

More nonsense, straw men, and deflection.

 

[CaptFun]

CaptFun = RED

Hard to know just how this will affect the scouts in the longer term. Only if you are emphasizing the word JUST. Otherwise, I offer the word “negatively”.

Having once been a young boy and a young man, having raised a son and now having several grandsons, my guess is that this is the end of the scouts. I sadly agree. Unless a spine is found somewhere. As a Catholic I believe that there is all about us a spiritual battle. One day we will be judged on where we stood per good or evil. The Scouts are generally a good thing. Satan wants to destroy or pervert any good thing into being more of a racket. Looks good outside … crooked on the inside.

When Jesus speaks in parables about a vineyard (that belongs to a master who has left its “care” in the hands of “servants”) He implies the vineyard is good, orderly, set up right and headed in a direction that will produce benefits for all. Servants and master.

When the servants begin to serve themselves, let the vineyard fall into disrepair, fight with the servants loyal to the master or otherwise become traitors … Jesus finishes the parable with a warning. In the case of the scribes and Pharisees and Sanhedrin of His time - the warning went unheeded and their time of stewardship cancelled as Christ commissioned His Church from among the more loyal servants.

In the case of the Boy Scouts today by analogy, what does God think? Well, He does give high praise to the natural innocence of children – and a severe warning to those who might deliberately steer a child toward sin. When His disciples asked Him “Who is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?” He answered more completely than their narrow focus, with directions and warnings:

**Matthew 18:2 **

He called a child over, placed it in their midst,

3 and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.

6 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7 Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come!

8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter into life maimed or crippled than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into eternal fire.

9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into fiery Gehenna.

10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my heavenly Father.

My observing this possible demise of something good (that you rightly suspect might happen God bless you Ridgerunner) leaves me with an aching feeling that I should DO something to prevent it. So far a few protesting words here, written in comfortable anonymity is all I offer. Some help I am.

After reading the scripture above and applying it to the scouts – being ringed around by devious sorts that hope to do a hostile takeover and demolition job on the scouts (IMO) – not only with this crafty presentation of the “gay issue” but …

… the radical Atheist(s) per Michael Newdow and his “case” (and groups that would want to go RIGHT into a parish based troop and rule the roost with prayer interdiction - with any reference to Our Lord being cast as somehow an insidious indoctrination that pollutes the increasingly “god-free society” the boys will soon be living in you see).

What ought to be done by me – besides prayer? Something. Prayer is a good start.
And though I don’t know exactly what else to do … I’d prefer to hear reveille than taps from the BSA leaders. If as you suspect the Boy Scouts “die” because of this … may it be a martyrs death that reaps one hundredfold of good in the coming years (like the seed of the early Church).

No boy or young man wants to identify with a group that other boys or young men will consider a “gay group”, unless they, too, are homosexual. Usually “all or none” statements go too far. Given your qualifier, I suspect your statement is “more true” than “false” – even conceding that many of the young candidates want to join things just to be joining their peers and (somehow!) don’t have sex on the brain as the only motivator for joining. Given the constant indoctrination today’s society bombards young people with (and everyone come to think of it) on this subject, a “non-sexual” kid might join a ***“gay group” ***and not think about it – because he’s been taught NOT to judge this but rather be “openminded” even if he himself is not … (etc, etc.).

I did bold and italicize Matthew 18:6 above as being germane to this topic.

Jesus of course gives severe warnings hoping that some will turn away from the things that merit Gehenna. So while the words seem “severe” they are the essence of charity in what they deliver. The “entering into life”. Even should it cost an arm or a leg.

It is a good time here for me to thank all the good men and women who gave of themselves to teach me good things. Spiritual or earthly practical - not that the latter can’t contain the former. Thank you so much. May I leave something good in MY wake in my time left here. :sad_yes:

 

[wynnejj]

from that site:

(emphasis added)

someone’s choo-choo just rolled off the tracks.

I have to admit that I feel somewhat the same about the article. Yet my choo-choo started rolling off the track when the claim that secret ballot is against scouting rules, and I thought the scouting community was about 60-40 against the new rule from its preliminary surveys … and, and … someone help me … I’m seeing chads and dimples…

 

[Fairwinds]

I have to admit that I feel somewhat the same about the article. Yet my choo-choo started rolling off the track when the claim that secret ballot is against scouting rules, and I thought the scouting community was about 60-40 against the new rule from its preliminary surveys … and, and … someone help me … I’m seeing chads and dimples…

there’s a straightforward legal challenge if they didn’t obey their own internal rules. I’d take the claim more seriously if and when it appears in legitimate news sources.

 

[meltzerboy]

I just can’t see that happening.

I just don’t think young men these days have such a strong dislike for gays that they’d avoid becoming a group that might include some of them.

They will only perpetuate the dislike for gays if they are taught to do so at home.

 

[fix]

There is no such thing as bigotry against homosexuals?

Sure there can be, but homophobia is a club used to stop discussions.

Homosexuality is not sinful in itself, as the Church teaches. She calls on us to treat people who are homosexual with compassion, charity, and respect. Letting a teen boy still be part of a club with his friends is not endorsing sexual activity.

Homosexual inclination is disordered and can evoke moral concern. Each case needs to be evaluated on its merits. Being in the BSA is not a right to exploit others for an ideology.

 

[edwest2]

Jumping in late here, away from the computer:

I sure can’t.

“Well, Johnny, I understand you have SSA, and, as a Catholic, I believe that it’s not a sin.”

“But, you see, because [parents are afraid you’ll make the other boys “turn gay”? or we don’t like these other people with their wicked evil “gay agenda”? or some other reason?], you’ll have to leave the Scouts.”

Doesn’t make sense to me either.

This is about boys. Whatever you might think about “these people” and their “agenda,” I can’t see punishing a boy for something he didn’t cause.

It’s not about boys.

"The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force applauded Spielberg for his resignation.

“We’d like to thank Steven Spielberg for recognizing the bigotry that the Boy Scouts’ policy has been perpetuating,” said Elizabeth Toledo, the NGLTF executive director. “This issue won’t go away for the Boy Scouts. Through actions like these, they will be forced to revisit [their policies].”

bleedingcool.com/2013/05/20/archie-comics-first-gay-kiss-as-a-result-of-one-million-moms/

Boys aren’t causing this.

Peace,
Ed

 

[rlg94086]

No it’s not. Homosexuality is not a mental disorder.

It is not a coded diagnostic entity within the mental heath community. It does not exist.

Morality doesn’t follow the mental health community. The desire to have sex with someone of the same gender or with oneself is a disordered desire according to the steadfast teaching of the Catholic Church. The fact that the psychological community changed its mind about it is irrelevant. They also believe masturbation is positive and beneficial. Sexual deviancy is celebrated by the mental health community, but not by the Catholic Church.

 

[wynnejj]

As a Catholic I wouldn’t think that’s right.

But two boys could meet after the CYO event, after school, after studying in the library, after football practice. The fair solution wouldn’t be to do away with all those things.

Just because something like that could happen doesn’t seem to justify kicking out any and all of them, whatever the circumstances.

Would you be of the same opinion if the PDA kiss became relatively commonplace?

Would you be of the same opinion if scoutmasters decided to expel the two boys from scouting but the appeal to BSA national council overrode the local decision?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I just can’t see that happening.

I just don’t think young men these days have such a strong dislike for gays that they’d avoid becoming a group that might include some of them.

We’ll just have to see. It isn’t a matter of having a “strong dislike for gays”, though. It’s a matter of self-identification with a group regarded as homosexual; something most boys and young men are not inclined to do.

Most young men are not inclined to favor open expression of any kind of sexual perversity, and that’s not limited to homosexuality.

 

[edwest2]

This is what I consider the insidious side of the new change proposal. Two self-professed gay boy scouts meet after the scouting event and publicly kiss out of uniform. You look at the picture and, many look at it like at it like Lady & the Tramp sharing a spaghetti noodle. Can a Catholic troop allow this type of moral relativism about homosexual behaviour?

Or one joins the military and marries.

bleedingcool.com/2011/11/23/exclusive-archie-comics-gay-wedding-cover/

Peace,
Ed

 

[Joe_5859]

Well, Joe. Each decision is individual but this whole issue was forced on the scouts.

"The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force applauded Spielberg for his resignation.

“We’d like to thank Steven Spielberg for recognizing the bigotry that the Boy Scouts’ policy has been perpetuating,” said Elizabeth Toledo, the NGLTF executive director. “This issue won’t go away for the Boy Scouts. Through actions like these, they will be forced to revisit [their policies].”

See the words “they will be forced.”? I remember the whole Spielberg situation quite well. Would you describe that as a knee-jerk reaction? It’s obvious that action was followed by further pressure and now, this.

I’m sure plenty of parents considered the ramifications. I’m sure plenty of parents reacted when they found out their little kids were being exposed to gay indoctrination through story books in schools.

Are you assuming someone else should decide for them, or the majority are so unable to think this through or don’t know about the normalizing of gay behavior being reported daily? About the celebrity or sports figure who is now “openly” LGBT?

I think Joe, that removing their kids/young adults from scouting immediately is the right move. They have plenty of evidence about the New Normal and the Modern Family from TV and the news.

Caution is good but not when lawmakers are openly denying the will of the people and we are seeing the same pattern being repeated over and over and over again. Gay people don’t want to be mistreated, bullied, harassed or called names? That’s great. I’m all for it. I wish the same could be said for all the other kids too.

Peace,
Ed

Well, I’m glad that the bishops don’t share your sentiment and don’t mind taking the time to think through things.

I understand the tendency to want to plug this into some larger narrative about our culture’s assault on traditional morality. But if we take a look at the new policy as worded, there is nothing objectionable to Catholics. Scouts cannot be barred on the basis of orientation alone. But Scouts are still expected to be morally upright, which means no sexual activity for any Scout, regardless of orientation.

We should look at this as a moment to teach the wider culture about the correct Catholic view of gay people: we do not discriminate against them. We do not ostracize them. We welcome them. But, as with all people, they are called to live morally virtuous lives in accordance with Catholic teaching.

I’m sure that there are those who were pushing for this who want to use it as a foot in the door and that they carefully crafted it in such a way that it can’t really be objected to on the face of it but will lay the groundwork for things to come. But their motives and aspirations are not relevant here. This change doesn’t really change anything for Catholic troops. If they start trying to force this into promoting or tolerating immoral behavior, then we’ll cross that bridge at that time and we’ll obviously hold our ground.

And, again, there is nothing in the new policy change that would be unacceptable as a policy for admitting children to Catholic schools or to the sacraments. So why turn our ire on the Boy Scouts?

 

[StJudeprayforme]

Sure there can be, but homophobia is a club used to stop discussions.

So, a word that means bigotry against homosexuals cannot be used legitimately because it is misused by some activists, but a word that means bigotry based on race can have a legitimate use even thought it is misused by activists? Seems like a double-standard to me.

Homosexual inclination is disordered and can evoke moral concern. Each case needs to be
evaluated on its merits. Being in the BSA is not a right to exploit others for an ideology.

Evoke moral concern? How? The BSA isn’t exploiting others for an ideology. They made it abundantly clear that this has nothing to do with sex or marriage. It is just taking the policies of the majority of charter organizations (don’t shun gay people from your parish or congregation because of their orientation) and putting it in force.

 

[signit]

from that site:

(emphasis added)

someone’s choo-choo just rolled off the tracks.

Looking at this quote from the site again:

You know, the BSA is now like the Rainbow Sash crowd. If any Rainbow Sash crowd or any Boy Scouts showed up for Holy Communion, I would not administer Holy Communion to them, for they are swearing to uphold the homosexualized Boy Scout Law, which is now about celebrating how great homosexuality is, against the natural law, the teaching of Scripture and the Church. The BSA has made itself enemies of the Church.

(emphasis added)

It seems to me the Scouts, on their site (as I quoted in my first post on the other thread) went out of their way to make it clear that the proposal was not a political statement on whether homosexuality was good or bad.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

More nonsense, straw men, and deflection.

Evidently you are unwilling to answer the question! Try personalize relationships with others. Do you know someone who is gay? Hypothetically speaking, what if your son or daughter were gay? Would you proclaim them as “evil”.

Please think through this discussion in the manner of an empathetic Christian.

 

[fix]

Well, I’m glad that the bishops don’t share your sentiment and don’t mind taking the time to think through things.

I understand the tendency to want to plug this into some larger narrative about our culture’s assault on traditional morality. But if we take a look at the new policy as worded, there is nothing objectionable to Catholics. Scouts cannot be barred on the basis of orientation alone. But Scouts are still expected to be morally upright, which means no sexual activity for any Scout, regardless of orientation.

We should look at this as a moment to teach the wider culture about the correct Catholic view of gay people: we do not discriminate against them. We do not ostracize them. We welcome them. But, as with all people, they are called to live morally virtuous lives in accordance with Catholic teaching.

I’m sure that there are those who were pushing for this who want to use it as a foot in the door and that they carefully crafted it in such a way that it can’t really be objected to on the face of it but will lay the groundwork for things to come. But their motives and aspirations are not relevant here. This change doesn’t really change anything for Catholic troops. If they start trying to force this into promoting or tolerating immoral behavior, then we’ll cross that bridge at that time and we’ll obviously hold our ground.

And, again, there is nothing in the new policy change that would be unacceptable as a policy for admitting children to Catholic schools or to the sacraments. So why turn our ire on the Boy Scouts?

The Church does not encourage anyone to “come out of the closet” or self identify as “gay”.

 

[fix]

Evidently you are unwilling to answer the question! Try personalize relationships with others. Do you know someone who is gay? Hypothetically speaking, what if your son or daughter were gay? Would you proclaim them as “evil”.

Please think through this discussion in the manner of an empathetic Christian.

Who has called anyone evil? No one in this thread. Your questions are loaded, wrong, and intended to deflect the actual point.

 

[Joe_5859]

The Church does not encourage anyone to “come out of the closet” or self identify as “gay”.

Sure. What’s your point, though? The new Boy Scout policy does not encourage this either.