Boy Scouts to allow gay youths to join

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LarryOrtega said:
The issue here is not accepting or not accepting boys that believe they are gay, it is understanding if Boy Scouts of America and the gay community will accept us telling the gay boy scouts that a gay lifestyle is immoral and should never be followed.

How will Boy Scouts of America react to those teachings?
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That will soon be tested, I am sure. I cannot be the only one that has decided to stand their ground here. That will be my response.
 
rlg94086 said:
But he declares he’s gay? Now, I’m confused…

He is a boy, who has experienced a disordered desire. Nothing more. The pro-gay crowd, some Catholics included apparently, want to rush in and have him define himself by his desire.
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My point is that I don’t think a boy of 10 has this ability since boys generally don’t hit puberty until they are around 12. There are some exceptions, but at this stage, most boys think that girls are still icky. If a 10 year old comes out as “gay” there is generally speaking some other factor at work other than sexual desires.

I am of the firm belief that we really shouldn’t be talking about sexual orientation until after puberty ends, making 16 and 17-year-olds really the earliest I am willing to concede that it may exist as a long-term factor. Even then, sometimes it is a phase that works itself out. I am fine with letting older high school children say they are gay, because some of them do really know this, but earlier than that it is really iffy.
 
StJudeprayforme said:
My point is that I don’t think a boy of 10 has this ability since boys generally don’t hit puberty until they are around 12. There are some exceptions, but at this stage, most boys think that girls are still icky. If a 10 year old comes out as “gay” there is generally speaking some other factor at work other than sexual desires.
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Yes. It’s called the pro-gay culture and wishy-washy Catholics who think everything is a gray area.
StJudeprayforme said:
I am of the firm belief that we really shouldn’t be talking about sexual orientation until after puberty ends, making 16 and 17-year-olds really the earliest I am willing to concede that it may exist as a long-term factor. Even then, sometimes it is a phase that works itself out. I am fine with letting older high school children say they are gay, because some of them do really know this, but earlier than that it is really iffy.
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Sexual orientation is an abused term. It is not a fixed, innate part of our creation. We have sexual desires. Some of them are properly ordered. Others are disordered. But, we aren’t heterosexuals, bisexuals, homosexuals, etceterasexuals…we are men and women, created in God’s image. Stop convincing people that they need to identify themselves by their disordered sexual desires!
 
fix said:
Scientism is a term used, usually pejoratively,[1][2][3] to refer to belief in the universal applicability of the scientific method and approach, and the view that empirical science constitutes the most authoritative worldview or most valuable part of human learning to the exclusion of other viewpoints.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism
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Did Galileo practice “sceintism”?
 
rlg94086 said:
Yes. It’s called the pro-gay culture and wishy-washy Catholics who think everything is a gray area.

Sexual orientation is an abused term. It is not a fixed, innate part of our creation. We have sexual desires. Some of them are properly ordered. Others are disordered. But, we aren’t heterosexuals, bisexuals, homosexuals, etceterasexuals…we are men and women, created in God’s image. Stop convincing people that they need to identify themselves by their disordered sexual desires!
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I think the “need to identify” is probably a defensive posture. People facing overt discrimination tend to align themselves with like-minded others in order to have a sense of community.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
I think the “need to identify” is probably a defensive posture. People facing overt discrimination tend to align themselves with like-minded others in order to have a sense of community.
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What “community” would that be? You guys have been arguing that this is much ado about nothing because we are talking desires not actions. Is there a special community of people with disordered sexual desires who are remaining chaste that these kids “need to identify” with? They don’t consider themselves to be like other human beings?
 
fix said:
He was arrogant. Do you know much about his case? Perhaps you can start a thread and show us how much you know?
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The point is that the Church persecuted Galileo for discovering that the geocentric (earth-at-the-center) view of the solar system was wrong.
 
rlg94086 said:
Sexual orientation is an abused term. It is not a fixed, innate part of our creation. We have sexual desires. Some of them are properly ordered. Others are disordered. But, we aren’t heterosexuals, bisexuals, homosexuals, etceterasexuals…we are men and women, created in God’s image. Stop convincing people that they need to identify themselves by their disordered sexual desires!
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I don’t think people “need to identify themselves by their disordered sexual desires.” I think they need a way to express the feelings that they have to other human beings and thus find the most efficient wording that will do it.
 
rlg94086 said:
What “community” would that be? You guys have been arguing that this is much ado about nothing because we are talking desires not actions. Is there a special community of people with disordered sexual desires who are remaining chaste that these kids “need to identify” with? They don’t consider themselves to be like other human beings?
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Again, this is the wrong attitude. The child will say “I am gay” and that is it. No other problems or issues. See how it works?
 
rlg94086 said:
What “community” would that be? You guys have been arguing that this is much ado about nothing because we are talking desires not actions. Is there a special community of people with disordered sexual desires who are remaining chaste that these kids “need to identify” with? They don’t consider themselves to be like other human beings?
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Ultimately what we are discussing is that human understanding comes from God. Yet the Church has struggled with discernment because we are nothing more than human beings.
 
meltzerboy said:
Could it be, Ed, you were not on the defensive because, as you say, you “learned there were certain places homosexual persons went”? However, when you then learned that homosexuals want to integrate themselves into the mainstream, perhaps a line was crossed in your mind? I’m just trying to understand your reasoning, and why it is that you don’t believe gay boys have as much of a right to be members of organizations such as the Boy Scouts as straight boys. I seriously doubt there is a gay agenda here, maybe in other arenas. What is so wrong with gay boys who want to be scouts because they enjoy the camaraderie and activities, and why do you assume there must be some kind of infiltration involved which is promoted by activist gay leaders? We’re not talking about infringement of religious values, as the strawperson you brought up with regard to Episcopalians and Catholics. Heck, I don’t think the present situation is even contrary to Catholic moral values, but barring gay boys, or ousting them, based only on (perceived) SSA might very well be.
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I don’t doubt that the gay agenda was a factor in this coming to the fore, but I don’t think the policy change would have passed if that was all it was. The Mormons pretty much backed the change en masse. This is the same group that donated millions towards passing Proposition 8 in California. They clearly don’t subscribe to the “gay agenda”.

I think we need to be very careful about how we react to this change. I’m inclined to find it unnecessary for people to wear their sexual orientation on their sleeve as a badge of honor. But I also find it unnecessary for a person to keep it locked away inside never daring to tell another living soul for fear of intense and immediate retribution. When we get all bent out of shape over the “what ifs” and the “what’s next”, we give the impression of wanting to cram people back in the closet to live a life of fear (whether or not we really feel that way is beside the point – this is the impression we leave people with).
 
StJudeprayforme said:
I don’t think people “need to identify themselves by their disordered sexual desires.” I think they need a way to express the feelings that they have to other human beings and thus find the most efficient wording that will do it.
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So, you are in favor of people identifying themselves by their other disordered feelings? Hi, I’m a masturbater. Hello there, I’m sexually attracted to sheep. Well, hello there, I get sexually excited when I see a 5 year old. Etcetera. :cool:
 
rlg94086 said:
Yes. It’s called the pro-gay culture and wishy-washy Catholics who think everything is a gray area.

Sexual orientation is an abused term. It is not a fixed, innate part of our creation. We have sexual desires. Some of them are properly ordered. Others are disordered. But, we aren’t heterosexuals, bisexuals, homosexuals, etceterasexuals…we are men and women, created in God’s image. Stop convincing people that they need to identify themselves by their disordered sexual desires!
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So if we don’t identify ourselves by our sexual desires–and I partly agree with you on this–what is the issue in the case of the change that took place regarding the BSA? They themselves use the term “sexual orientation” as no longer justifiably a basis of discrimination. Leaving that aside, why do you believe gay boys should still be barred from the Boy Scouts, if not on the basis of their (perceived) sexual orientation?
 
fix said:
Again, this is the wrong attitude. The child will say “I am gay” and that is it. No other problems or issues. See how it works?
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Except the issue with the BSA and homosexuality tends to be with older teens. There is a big difference between a boy of ten or twelve, and a teen of seventeen saying “I am gay”.

If a ten or twelve year old tells me “I’m gay” I would be all “That’s nice Johnny, go play basketball now.” and then wait two hours and he will likely have forgotten that he is gay. If a seventeen year old comes out, it is quite a different story.
 
Joe_5859 said:
I don’t doubt that the gay agenda was a factor in this coming to the fore, but I don’t think the policy change would have passed if that was all it was. The Mormons pretty much backed the change en masse. This is the same group that donated millions towards passing Proposition 8 in California. They clearly don’t subscribe to the “gay agenda”.

I think we need to be very careful about how we react to this change. I’m inclined to find it unnecessary for people to wear their sexual orientation on their sleeve as a badge of honor. But I also find it unnecessary for a person to keep it locked away inside never daring to tell another living sould for fear of intense and immediate retribution. When we get all bent out of shape over the “what ifs” and the “what’s next”, we give the impression of wanting to cram people back in the closet to live a life of fear (whether or not we really feel that way is beside the point – this is the impression we leave people with).
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The Church has said clearly there is no need to discuss this in public. The BSA is no place for this issue. Frankly, some things should be in the closet. That is how we deal with private matters. At least until about 5 minutes ago. Now every unnatural thought must be said publicly and affirmed.
 
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