Boy Scouts to allow gay youths to join

[armyross]

Wow! I would have to say that if there was an adult that believed coed locker rooms was acceptable I would never allow them to have contact with children. I also think children should not be given pornography in scouting.

This guy should be locked up. He sounds like a sick perv!!!

 

[armyross]

Originally Posted by armyross
So let me understand you. Its ok to have coed locker rooms and tents right everyone together?

Sure.

So then you are a PERV good now I understand. You need some help.

 

[rlg94086]

Homosexuality has always been regarded a deviant behavior. I think it is up to you to show that it is something inborn or compulsive. After all it is you who are proposing the new view.

Not me, friend. Someone else. I agree with you and was being sarcastic.

 

[wynnejj]

I was unaware that the BSA bylaws had explicitly said that gays were to be excluded because they are not “morally straight”.

Christian Science Monitor: Boy Scouts: Will anti-gay troops emerge?

The drive to allow gay boys came from deep within the organization itself, especially given that the Boy Scouts had the full legal right to say no. In 2000, the US Supreme Court upheld the Boy Scout policy, saying private organizations don’t need to accept members or leaders in violation of their own moral creed, specifically a line in its bylaws that says that gay people should be excluded because they are not "morally straight."

If the bylaws do not change, then one would have to interpret to mean that active gay are not “morally straight”. That is, their own by-laws represent social advocacy within the scouting community against homosexual acts.

The policy change is not necessarily a reversal of the bylaws since we are talking about sexual orientation or preference alone.

I wonder how that would play out if members start to promote ideas about gay rights within the community … would be a violation of the “sexual orientation or preference alone”.

So the stand that homosexual acts are not morally straight would still be a timeless value.

 

[Brendan_64]

Organisations such as this should not stop people from joining because of their sexual orientation, or even if they were sexually active. Allowing someone to join an organisation does not mean that you approve of their behaviour. Should the scouts bar any non-celibate heterosexual from joini?

Does our Church stop people from entering because of immoral behaviour, or even the basis that their inclination and urges may be to commit immoral behaviour that they haven’t actually committed yet? In that case you would bar any unmarried heterosexual from entering the Church as they too will have urges to commit carnal sins.

 

[wynnejj]

Organisations such as this should not stop people from joining because of their sexual orientation, or even if they were sexually active. Allowing someone to join an organisation does not mean that you approve of their behaviour. Should the scouts bar any non-celibate heterosexual from joini?

Does our Church stop people from entering because of immoral behaviour, or even the basis that their inclination and urges may be to commit immoral behaviour that they haven’t actually committed yet? In that case you would bar any unmarried heterosexual from entering the Church as they too will have urges to commit carnal sins.

They take an oath. It makes all the difference in the world.

 

[Brendan]

Why haven’t we heard anything about open lesbians in the Girl Scouts? Is this gender targeting?

Just order a little light reading from Amazon

amazon.com/On-My-Honor-Lesbians-Experience/dp/1886231028/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1369575530&sr=8-1&keywords=everything+needed+to+know+lesbian+girl+scouts

Read the reviews.

 

[Brendan]

Organisations such as this should not stop people from joining because of their sexual orientation, or even if they were sexually active. Allowing someone to join an organisation does not mean that you approve of their behaviour. Should the scouts bar any non-celibate heterosexual from joini?

Does our Church stop people from entering because of immoral behaviour, or even the basis that their inclination and urges may be to commit immoral behaviour that they haven’t actually committed yet? In that case you would bar any unmarried heterosexual from entering the Church as they too will have urges to commit carnal sins.

Holy Mass is not a near occasion of sin for homosexuals. Camp can be.

As Catholics, were are to avoid those, and not be facilitators of others doing so.

 

[Brendan_64]

They take an oath. It makes all the difference in the world.

So they specifically mention homosexuality in their oath do they? Morally straight is not there to refer to sexual orientation, but to refer to honesty and character.

From US Scouts website:

“DUTY TO SELF: Keeping yourself physically strong means taking care of your body. Eat the right foods and build your strength. Staying mentally awake means learn all you can, be curious, and ask questions. Being morally straight means to live your life with honesty, to be clean in your speech and actions, and to be a person of strong character.”

Is there anyone on this planet who is not inclined to stray from the path of honesty and strong character? Have you ever met anyone who hasn’t strayed in this regard? Does that exclude all people from joining the scouts because they are likely, at some stage, to behave in a dishonest way, or have a lapse in character?

 

[wynnejj]

So they specifically mention homosexuality in their oath do they? Morally straight is not there to refer to sexual orientation, but to refer to honesty and character.

Not according to the by-laws, if you had read my earlier post. I’m not sure if the Christian Science Monitor has put a spin on the by-laws (I haven’t found a full copy to verify), but it the article is correct, then exclusion of gays (which under the new policy would mean active gays) is maintained on the grounds of not being “morally straight”. Regardless of our differing views on the matter, there is a fundamental stance that the BSA has made via its by-laws against homosexual activity when applied to our understanding of the scout oath. It is a view that is subscribed by members via oath that extends beyond their active scouting days into manhood.

 

[fix]

I was unaware that the BSA bylaws had explicitly said that gays were to be excluded because they are not “morally straight”.

Christian Science Monitor: Boy Scouts: Will anti-gay troops emerge?

I wonder how that would play out if members start to promote ideas about gay rights within the community … would be a violation of the “sexual orientation or preference alone”.

So the stand that homosexual acts are not morally straight would still be a timeless value.

That was my question from the start. Simply claiming no sexual activity is no evidence of no problems.

 

[gilliam]

In a statement released to priests and deacons in the Lafayette diocese, Bishop Michael Jarrell says the announcement that the Boy Scouts of America will admit gay scouts to its ranks does not run counter to church policy.

“National media have reported that the Boy Scouts have changed their policy and will admit ‘openly gay’ young men,” Jarrell wrote in his letter. “I note that the policy adopted does not use those words. It states: ‘No youth may be denied membership in the Boys Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.’”

Jarrell goes on to explain that his position, and that of the church, is to promote tolerance rather than exclusion.

“The new standard adopted by the Boy Scout of America does not provide an obstacle to continued sponsoring of scouting,” Jarrell said, “as long as Catholic principles of morality are consistently applied.”

katc.com/news/bishop-jarrell-says-boy-scouts-announcement-doesn-t-counter-church-policy/#_

 

[wynnejj]

That was my question from the start. Simply claiming no sexual activity is no evidence of no problems.

Exactly. The “sex abuse” discussion, whether or not of significant concern, is not the fundamental issue. The fundamental issue is the ability to subvert our youth’s belief systems about homosexual acts and the concept of “morally straight”.

The BSA, though non-sectarian, came from a 1911 world view in America that was based on Judeo-Christian values. That does not mean that “reverence”, which had a core value of respect for the belief systems of others, did not extend beyond Judeo-Christian circles. However, within its membership it had fundamental values in its functional design that represented the world view of the day … and that most certainly included traditional family values with respect to family structure and its sexual mores which were not generally at odds with other major religions of the world.

 

[zab]

I was unaware that the BSA bylaws had explicitly said that gays were to be excluded because they are not “morally straight”.

Christian Science Monitor: Boy Scouts: Will anti-gay troops emerge?

If the bylaws do not change, then one would have to interpret to mean that active gay are not “morally straight”. That is, their own by-laws represent social advocacy within the scouting community against homosexual acts.

The policy change is not necessarily a reversal of the bylaws since we are talking about sexual orientation or preference alone.

I wonder how that would play out if members start to promote ideas about gay rights within the community … would be a violation of the “sexual orientation or preference alone”.

So the stand that homosexual acts are not morally straight would still be a timeless value.

Here is a letter from a young man who became an Eagle Scout at the age of 12 and also became an Order of the Arrow Brotherhood member. Apparently he benefited much from the Boy Scouts but he…well read it for yourself. What else could it mean when one states says that the BSA should build support from within (for gays and gay leaders). That can only mean building an acceptance for approving the gay lifestyle and that would be attempting to change the BSA moral code. So how is that fair to those who follow the moral code of the BSA?
kitsapsun.com/news/2013/may/25/letter-to-the-editor-good-step-but-bsas-message/#axzz2UPGq8UNe

 

[gilliam]

Father James Martin, SJ, posted the following reaction on his Facebook page:

“As a former Cub Scout and Webelo I support the Boy Scouts’ welcoming everyone into the Scouts. As a Catholic I support the recognition of the fundamental human dignity of every person…”

 

[gilliam]

The BSA have policies against inappropriate behavior. Those policies do not change. This policy change ONLY affects orientation. Here is a note from Richard Mathews,
BSA’s General Counsel, send prior to the vote:

"The bottom line is that all councils and chartered organizations, units and
members must follow BSA policies. If the pending/proposed resolution passes,
it would be a violation of BSA policies if the reason for not allowing a gay
youth to join their unit was solely or primarily/substantially due to him
being a homosexual.

If this resolution passes, a youth’s sexual orientation is to be irrelevant
in any membership decision – not dissimilar from what it has always been;
with the exception that under our current membership policy, if the youth
were now to say that he has a homosexual orientation, that would be an
issue. However, any type of sexual actions – regardless of whether
heterosexual or homosexual - would be a basis for removal or denial of
membership; likewise any kind of “advocacy” or linking Scouting to any
social or political advocacy beyond that of patriotism, good citizenship and
Scouting values would also be the basis for removal or denial of
membership."

 

[Brendan]

“The new standard adopted by the Boy Scout of America does not provide an obstacle to continued sponsoring of scouting,” Jarrell said, “as long as Catholic principles of morality are consistently applied.”

katc.com/news/bishop-jarrell-says-boy-scouts-announcement-doesn-t-counter-church-policy/#_

And that is the $64,000 question. Will Catholic principles be consistently applied?
Will the actual implementation details of these guidelines by the BSA be in accord with Catholic teaching, and will the BSA apply them consistently?

 

[gilliam]

And that is the $64,000 question. Will Catholic principles be consistently applied?
Will the actual implementation details of these guidelines by the BSA be in accord with Catholic teaching, and will the BSA apply them consistently?

See my note on behavior from the BSA General Counsel. Nothing changes in that area.

 

[gilliam]

“The Archdiocese of Denver stated it will continue to allow parish-chartered Scouting organizations, but would be ‘steadfast in articulating a Christian understanding of human dignity and sexuality.’ “

denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_23311815/historic-vote-accept-gays-boy-scouts-draws-mixed?utm_source=feedly

“Although an Allentown Catholic Diocese spokesman said local church leaders would take direction from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops regarding the change, an expert on Catholic doctrine said the Scouts’ new policy meshes well with church practices.

” ‘We stand for the inherent dignity of every young person while also standing opposed to the acceptance of homosexual behavior as something morally or culturally good,’ said the Rev. Thomas Dailey, a professor of theology at DeSales University in Center Valley.

“Dailey said that allowing youth members without regard to their sexual orientation but barring role models to young Scouts who are gay reflects those Catholic values.”

articles.mcall.com/2013-05-23/news/mc-boy-scouts-gay-members-policy-20130523_1_boy-scouts-gay-members-scouting-community

I haven’t seen anything from the USCCB yet

 

[wynnejj]

However, any type of sexual actions – regardless of whether
heterosexual or homosexual - would be a basis for removal or denial of
membership; likewise any kind of “advocacy” or linking Scouting to any
social or political advocacy beyond that of patriotism, good citizenship and
Scouting values would also be the basis for removal or denial of
membership."

The Catholic Church obliges a vocal stance against homosexual advocacy where homosexuals intermingle in a parish setting when there is any ambiguity or neutrality about the issue of homosexuality being offered. To be silent is not acceptable. I’ve posted the links to the church documents that pertain the recommendations to bishops by the vatican with relation to the pastoral care of those with homosexual inclinations. It is clear that those with homosexual inclinations should be welcomed with open arms, but it is just as clear that the emphasis of the documents is to dispel any notion that one should give any ambivalent messages about homosexual acts or the normalization of homosexual activity in society.

The parish’s obligation to stand against homosexual acts in society may be grounds for losing its chartered BSA organizations.