Brazil Church condemns abortion of twins

[browser1]

An article from Cathnews

The Brazilian Church has announced the excommunication of those responsible for an abortion carried out on a nine year girl who had been pregnant with twins after allegedly being raped by her stepfather.

Local Archbishop Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, said the Church was excommunicating all those responsible for the abortion: the medical team and the girl’s mother, The Australian reports.

"God’s law is above any human law. So when a human law … is contrary to God’s law, this human law has no value,’’ Archbishop Cardoso told the news television network Globo.

“The adults who approved, who carried out this abortion, will be excommunicated,” said the archbishop for the Recife region.

The case has sparked off fierce debate in Brazil, where abortion is illegal except in cases of rape or if the woman’s health is in danger.

The girl, who was not identified because she is a minor, was last week found to be four months’ pregnant after being taken to hospital suffering stomach pains.

Officials said she told them she had suffered sexual abuse by her stepfather since the age of six.

He was arrested a week ago and is being kept in protective custody. If convicted, he faces up to 15 years in prison.

The website of Globo reported that another girl, aged 11, was being looked after in a hospital in southern Brazil after being found to be seven months’ pregnant following alleged sexual abuse at the hands of her adoptive father.

As heartbreaking as this story is, I don’t understand the outcry over the excommunication. The church is very clear on procurement of a completed abortion. Really the mother excommunicated herself

 

[Eucharisted]

I am glad the bishops are obeying Mother Church

 

[InQuist23]

Ok, I am highly disturbed by this, not just the story, but the bishop also - which is why I came on here. I am pro-life like all Catholics but in cases of extreme cases like this, there has be some tolerance for the family here. We are talking about excommunicating THE FAMILY who wants to save their daughter’s 9-YEAR OLD LIFE who was horribly raped by a monster stepfather. The fact the bishop is excommunicating them and all involved is lunacy in my mind. Am I supposed to believe that an abortion that would protect an undeveloped young girl’s vital organs, which without doing so would most likely result in the girl AND the fetus to die? That is pro-life? I understand Brazil has its laws which are injunction with the Church, but to run the country like they did back in the dark ages makes me understand the animosity so many Brazilians have against their government.

All while the step-father, arrested for raping his her for years, can repent and still be considered ‘Catholic’. Hypocrisy.

I pray for that family, and hope that the Vatican intervenes in this complex situation.

 

[Eucharisted]

Ok, I am highly disturbed by this, not just the story, but the bishop also - which is why I came on here. I am pro-life like all Catholics but in cases of extreme cases like this, there has be some tolerance for the family here. We are talking about excommunicating THE FAMILY who wants to save their daughter’s 9-YEAR OLD LIFE who was horribly raped by a monster stepfather. The fact the bishop is excommunicating them and all involved is lunacy in my mind. Am I supposed to believe that an abortion that would protect an undeveloped young girl’s vital organs, which without doing so would most likely result in the girl AND the fetus to die? That is pro-life? I understand Brazil has its laws which are injunction with the Church, but to run the country like they did back in the dark ages makes me understand the animosity so many Brazilians have against their government.

All while the step-father, arrested for raping his her for years, can repent and still be considered ‘Catholic’. Hypocrisy.

I pray for that family, and hope that the Vatican intervenes in this complex situation.

The Catholic Church teaches that abortion may not be performed under any circumstances. Just as Jesus did not change His teachings so many of His disciples would not leave when He taught about the Eucharist, so will the Church stand firm in the truth - even if some believers don’t like it and leave. For them do we pray.

 

[kyria]

I am pro-life too, but I can’t see how a nine year old child would survive the pregnancy of twins, and I don’t think the Brazilian Catholic Church should have spoken out like this as it kind of makes us look like a Church that would risk the death of a child and I can’t see how she would have been physically able to carry twins to full term, thus I don’t believe the babies would have survived anyway.

Unless someone can show me proof that this child would have been able to carry those twins to a viable age, I see this as a case of saving the life of an innocent child, as I can’t see how the twins would have survived anyway. The nine year old is a child too, just as the aborted babies were.

I’ve got a ten year old girl, and I can’t see how her small body would have been able to carry two babies to a viable age, let alone a nine year old.

 

[NoxSineStellae]

Why isn’t the child raping piece of garbage stepfather also being excommunicated? Why doesn’t the Church view him as sharing in the responsibility of the abortion? He’s the one that created the babies!

I think that the enragement is not so much that the mother/doctors are being excommunicated but that the father is not, and that as far as I know, the Church has not issued a statement on the father’s crimes. I doubt it’s intentional, but it sends the message that child rapists are A-OK.

Is performing an abortion on a 9 year old worse than raping your stepdaughter from the ages of 6 to 9 and only stopping because you were found out when she becomes pregnant? Logically, yes, because the abortion took away the chance at life for these babies, the chance to grow up and live life and serve God and be raped themselves, etc, etc…but isn’t raping kids against God’s law too? The Bishop says they must be excommunicated for breaking God’s law, which is above man’s law. So why isn’t the Bishop publically excommunicating all others who break God’s law - starting with this pigscum rapist?

I’m against abortion. I believe life begins at conception. I believe abortion is always killing, always the taking of a human life. But it is not always 1st degree murder. Sometimes it is self-defense.

 

[MariaTheresa]

The excommunication is absolutely ridiculous. This nine year old child cannot carry a twin pregnancy or probably any pregnancy to term and would likely die as a result or be severely physically damaged. Her doctors have also stated this. These twins should not have been sent to grow in her womb by this rapist. The nine year old’s life matters just as much as the pregnancy. If this happened to my daughter I would do exactly the same thing. I am pro life which includes not letting my daughter be physically destroyed.

 

[NReily]

I might take some heat for this but…

I think people are misunderstanding the situation.

The dad has been arrested and is going to jail, and considering he’s a child rapist in brazil, I doubt he’s going to survive prison long. He has committed mortal sin for years because of his actions, and has shown no remorse for them. He doesn’t need to be excommunicated because he has already cut himself off from any grace due to his actions.

The laws allow for Abortion in the case of rape or the life of the daughter, but the Church does not allow exceptions for this. The circumstances do not change the fact that a life has been destroyed by Abortion. As shown in the articles there has been nothing definitive other than doctor speculation that it would be impossible for her to carry this child. But two years ago a 9 year old who was in essentially the same situation gave birth to a child and lived:
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,202601,00.html

The youngest person to give birth was a 5 year old girl in Peru…and she lived.
Google: Youngest person to give birth

I would dare say based upon this that it was not “impossible” for her to carry this child, when history shows it has been done, and we serve an all-powerful God who is weeping over what has been done this girl, and now what has been done to the unborn child she was carrying.

In other words, this girl had a chance to give birth and live. Therefore, it is wrong for the parents and/or the state to help her get that Abortion. The mother helped destroy a life, knew what she was doing, and that carries an automatic excommunication according to Canon Law.

It needed to be done.

 

[Wintersdemise]

But two years ago a 9 year old who was in essentially the same situation gave birth to a child and lived:
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,202601,00.html

Yea, but the fact that this girl was pregnant with twins makes things totally different. How can a fragile 9 year old girl carrie two babies in her womb and live?

I am strongly pro-life. But I believe this is the one exception. I really hope the Vatican intervenes here and takes a closer look at this case. We should be praying for these people.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

A doctor saying that there is danger in the future is not the same thing as someone’s life being in present danger. Be very careful; medical predictions, though certainly useful in planning treatment, have been used in attempts to justify euthanasia, another little no-no.

Acting to save the life of someone who is not yet in danger is not the same thing as acting when the danger is becoming manifest. We are not talking about removing an appendix here, but of the termination of 2 lives because of a prediction. Should the danger have become manifest, the issue would be different, since then the risk would be actually becoming realized.

Every pregnancy carries a finite risk of death to the mother - every one. Using the presence of risk, before the risk materializes, to justify termination of life is to justify abortion on demand.

Is the girl a victim? Yes. Is the father something that would get me banned for explicitly naming in this post? Undoubtedly. Do we really endorse the logic that “the father is clearly a [insert banned epithet here], therefore the unborn must be murdered?” Let me know if we do. I’ll think about it while I’m cleaning my gun, because if that be the case, there’s a lot of folks out there who should have been done in a long time ago, and there’s lost time to be made up.

Sound risky? Want to preemptively eliminate me? Well relax, because I, for one, am going to be very hard to convince that the despicable nature of the father justifies the murder of the offspring. But you can try; everyone needs a hobby.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[Beautiful]

I might take some heat for this but…

I think people are misunderstanding the situation.

The dad has been arrested and is going to jail, and considering he’s a child rapist in brazil, I doubt he’s going to survive prison long. He has committed mortal sin for years because of his actions, and has shown no remorse for them. He doesn’t need to be excommunicated because he has already cut himself off from any grace due to his actions.

The laws allow for Abortion in the case of rape or the life of the daughter, but the Church does not allow exceptions for this. The circumstances do not change the fact that a life has been destroyed by Abortion. As shown in the articles there has been nothing definitive other than doctor speculation that it would be impossible for her to carry this child. But two years ago a 9 year old who was in essentially the same situation gave birth to a child and lived:
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,202601,00.html

The youngest person to give birth was a 5 year old girl in Peru…and she lived.
Google: Youngest person to give birth

I would dare say based upon this that it was not “impossible” for her to carry this child, when history shows it has been done, and we serve an all-powerful God who is weeping over what has been done this girl, and now what has been done to the unborn child she was carrying.

In other words, this girl had a chance to give birth and live. Therefore, it is wrong for the parents and/or the state to help her get that Abortion. The mother helped destroy a life, knew what she was doing, and that carries an automatic excommunication according to Canon Law.

It needed to be done.

After reading the story this morning I thought the exact same thoughts. You won’t get any heat from me.

The poor 9 year old has been run over by a truck twice…once by the rapist and then another time by those who brought the twins to abortion.

The Bishop did what needed to be done. Pray for him.

The readers responses were almost as interesting as those here. I read violent response after violent response - hating the Church. Here - readers simply and politely reject the Bishop’s action. Their minds and hearts can’t seem to fully grasp the reality of the situation…for this we can’t condemn them. Pray they understand someday.

 

[Wintersdemise]

Pray they understand someday.

Well, help me understand.

If doctors say a girl this young will not live through the pregnancy or die at the point of giving birth then is this not one situation where abortion may be permitted?

That’s the impression I am getting from this article. Unfortunately, it’s not very detailed, but we shouldn’t undermine the knowledge of the doctor.

 

[NReily]

Yea, but the fact that this girl was pregnant with twins makes things totally different. How can a fragile 9 year old girl carrie two babies in her womb and live?

I am strongly pro-life. But I believe this is the one exception. I really hope the Vatican intervenes here and takes a closer look at this case. We should be praying for these people.

The youngest mother of twins was 13
greatbabyproducts.com/Twins_s/129.htm

The youngest mother of triplets was 13
www3.telus.net/tyee/multiples/triplets.html

Would you have problems with a 13 year old girl giving birth as well?

Now I have never been pregnant (I am a 19 year old male), but from the article it seemed like the Bishop felt she should have received a cesarean in order to give birth. Naturally giving birth would probably be more of a challenge, but based on what I have been reading typically one comes out first, and then the other.
pregnancy.about.com/cs/twinsmore/a/aatwinlabor.htm

So the question becomes: Is her uterus too small to carry both children to full development? Well if not, and the development isn’t long enough to be able to do a cesarean, then there are a couple of scenarios. She could of have something to the equivalent of a miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy. Also, one of the children might die in development, but the other one might still live.

From the Catholic perspective, either of those scenarios are better than the Abortion, because:

A.) The Bishop wasn’t saying or forcing the girl to give birth naturally.
B.) One of the children still might live to full development, while the other might miscarry, which while tragic, is at least better than Abortion because now the girl and one of the twins would live.

 

[Beautiful]

My cousin worked as a social worker for unwed inner city female adolescents and teens. She described having pregnant 9 and 10 years olds run up to sit on her lap. It happens.
Part of the shock factor of this story is not be able to fathom such a young female being pregnant.
Sometimes females start menstruation early in life. I can personally testify that it really does happen. Females are physically equipped to handle full term reproduction even at this early age. We live in a culture that expects pregnancy to be coupled with marriage somewhere around the age of 26
While the average age of marriage/children keeps going up and up the average female’s first menstruation - 12 and as low as 8 is dropping! With better nutrition and medical care females are actually menstruating at an earlier age than their grandmothers.

 

[Beautiful]

Furthermore…the average age of marriage for females in the ancient world was 12-13. It was precisely the age of menstruation/puberty. Today the average is still 12 but like I said in the previous post - it is dropping. Shocking as it may seem to some…sometimes very young females are fertile and do get impregnated.
I have a strong feeling the Bishop in question was aware that the mother of the 9 year old fully understood the ramifications of her actions on the child/daughter. I simply don’t imagine ripping the life of twins from my nine year old daughter. Challenging as the situation may have seemed…two wrongs don’t make a right.

 

[Cattitude]

Well, help me understand.

If doctors say a girl this young will not live through the pregnancy or die at the point of giving birth then is this not one situation where abortion may be permitted?

That’s the impression I am getting from this article. Unfortunately, it’s not very detailed, but we shouldn’t undermine the knowledge of the doctor.

Doctors can be and are wrong all the time.

We shouldn’t undermine God’s will and design for this girl and her babies. The bishops were right; what should have happened in that this girl and her family got all the support, counseling, prayer and medical care needed to make her and her babies as safe and healthy as possible.

 

[Layman]

1. Caesarian section
2. Now the child’s life is wrecked anyway.

 

[Christiano]

When asked if he would excommunicate Jailton José da Silva, the stepfather/rapist who got the girl pregnant, archbishop José Cardoso Sobrinho told reporters: “He commited a hedious crime, but he isn’t included in the excommunication. There are so many other serious sins. More serious than this is abortion, eliminating a life.”

For me (and that’s just my opinion), the stepfather should also be excommunicated. There’s no good reason for me to keep him as a member of the church, especially since he abused his stepdaughter for 3 years. And I don’t see how a girl who is 4’4" tall and weights 79 pounds, like the one mentioned in this case, could carry out a pregnancy of twins and not be affected by it. Even if she didn’t die, I’m certain this pregnancy could have serious sequelas on her, both physically and psychologically.

 

[Beautiful]

And I don’t see how a girl who is 4’4" tall and weights 79 pounds, like the one mentioned in this case, could carry out a pregnancy of twins and not be affected by it. Even if she didn’t die, I’m certain this pregnancy could have serious sequelas on her, both physically and psychologically.

If a 28 inch woman can give birth to an 18 inch baby then I’m certain 4’4" is hardly an issue.
Sequelas Consequences? She will need help - now even more since her babies were aborted.

 

[rayne89]

I am surprised that strong Catholics don’t understand the church’s actions here. The church does not allow for abortion for any reason, at all, ever. By the third month, those babies were already moving in womb, their hearts were beating. The child was 4 months pregnant so they would have performed a second trimester abortion. This is how it is done.

The D&E (dilation and extraction) is the most common type of second trimester abortion. During this procedure, the mother’s cervix must be dilated much more than in a first trimester abortion simply because her baby is now too large to pull it from the uterus solely by using the suction machine.
After sufficient dilation is accomplished, the abortionist begins the D&E procedure by rupturing the amniotic sac which contains the unborn child. He then begins the process of dismembering the baby and pulling it out of the uterus in pieces. To do this, the abortionist uses suction as well as surgical forceps which basically act like a pair of pliers. He inserts this instrument into the uterus and starts to open and close it until a part of the baby or placenta is grasped. That piece is torn off and is pulled out. This process is repeated until the abortionist feels that the procedure has been completed.
Sometimes, the baby’s skull is too large to pull out of the uterus, so the abortionist must first crush it with the forceps. The abortionist will know that the child’s skull has been sufficiently collapsed when the baby’s brains flow out of the uterus. Among abortionists this is called the “calvaria sign” and it signals that the skull will then be much easier to remove.
klanparenthood.com/DeathCamps/Methods2.cfm

Those living babies were ripped apart piece by piece and thats ok because the mother was nine? The earliest premature baby that survived was just under 22 weeks gestation. Those babies could have been delivered prematurely when their size became detrimental to their mother and given at least a chance to survive. Those babies are children, with souls, who are innocent of their rapist father’s actions. Since when, do we as Catholic, kill innocent human beings, because of their possible risk to another?