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Dauphin
Guest
I don’t think either of you understand. God permitted it. That God permits evil is beyond discussion, since it’s manifestly obvious. Anyway, this isn’t the topic of the thread.
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FrancesMarx
Guest
Some one posted this.I understand your observation. There a balkers that respond negatively - racing through a thread making noise like nails scratching on a chalkboard and then they leave. These screamers are much worse sounding on secular news websites. I don’t bother reading the posts at my local online news agency which for the most part goes unedited.
As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be - only God’s Word lives - all else dies.
“God in His own plan, allowed her to get pregnant with twins”
If this is right then there will be plenty of 8 year old boys and girls running for cover just to protect themselves from this plan of God.
And it is better to know what exactly is the church’s stand in such cases so that people like me can decide whether to stay with the church or not. In this case by backing the Bishop who excommunicated the Mother and Doctor, RC church gave me a strong case that I should stay away from the church.
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oldcelt
Guest
We obviously have differing views on this matter. I pulled back out of respect for the board and the fact that I find some grave inconsistencies with the notion that God is both all knowing, and all loving, and has a plan. To justify these things in my mind, I choose to belive that God is not all knowing…life is random, and God’s love is there for us if we choose to embrace it.
I will leave, not because I am a balker, but because we are indeed of topic.
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Gerry_Hunter
Guest
You leave as a Deist, who does not believe what the Church teaches, you realize?
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Beautiful
Guest
We are directed by free will and not, as some say, subjected to the compulsion of inescapable fate.
That is why God has given us the promise of his kingdom but also threatened us with punishment. He would not have done that to people in the toils of necessity. He would not have laid down laws, he would not have given us exhortations if we had been prisoners of destiny.
We are free and from lack of effort or virtuous by striving, he uses the medicine of the fear of punishment to correct our course and the attraction of the hope of heaven to steer us towards wisdom.
Not only from this argument but from the way we normally behave, it is clear that our lives are not directed by fate.
For if fate were the cause of our actions rather than our free will, what justification have you for whipping the slave who is a thief? Why, if your wife has committed adultery, do you take her to court? When you do stupid things, why are you ashamed? Why are you intolerant of accusations and regard it as an insult if anyone calls you an adulterer or a fornicator or a drunkard or suchlike?
The myth of compelling destiny is nonsense. Our lives are subject to no unavoidable fate. Everything, as I have argued points to the beauty of free will.
~ John Chrystostom ~
The stepfather afflicted great pain on the young girl and others when he chose to sin. Forgiveness and healing was needed immediately at that time. Forgiveness is loving and it is a really BIG deal. Not only is forgiveness a really BIG deal but it is the best and only deal you and I and all others have to remain in God’s Light. Forgiveness is a grace bestowed on us and through us from Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ only. Rather than forgive, the mother purposely compounded the affliction of sin by leading her daughter to an abortionist to kill the twins. There is no denying there were two precious lives in the young girl. The crux of this matter is right there – do you believe there were two lives in the young girl’s womb worth saving? If you agree then you understand the Church’s stance for excommunicating the mother. The abortionist has already excommunicated him/herself by default as did the stepfather who purportedly had been sexually abusing the girl for three years.
If the mother, stepfather and abortionist repent the excommunication can be lifted.
EASY BUTTON? Conversion is the answer.
And you would walk away from The Church that preaches - particularly this time of year – Lent – conversion, repentance and forgiveness for all? Where does that leave you? ……with your bare backside showing and your pants around your ankles tripping as you stumble to the ground……you aren’t dead yet man ……you can still grasp the greatest Truth that surpasses human inertness. Only through Him, with Him and in Him do we have eternal life.
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Beautiful
Guest
Your tone reminds me of Yul Brynner in The Ten Commandments (1956).
**Rameses: ** So let it be written, so let it be done.
This is a good time of year to let loose and watch this movie if you haven’t already.
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burnside
Guest
I responded to a letter on our TV Teletext on this subject and asked for the source for this story.I have since found this link through the search engine:-
karachinews.net/story/474245
karachinews.net/story/474245
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Ailina
Guest
I think the outcry is strongest at the lack of Church action against the step-father, who was not excommunicated, yet he was the instigator of the crime. But for him, that young girl would not have become pregnant in the first place.
That young girl was every much a victim as the aborted babies were. She is no less innocent than they. She was SIX YEARS OLD when the sexual abuse began. That is what I take issue with: that the Church seems to have YET AGAIN turned a blind eye to the sexual abuse of the youngest and most powerless members of Her Church. I honestly can’t see that Jesus would have been so charitable towards such a man, who repeatedly attacked a small child for his own sexual gratification for years on end.
The whole situation is heart-breaking and terrible. I don’t see how ex-communicating the mother and doctors is going to undo what happened. It certainly does make people, both inside and outside, question the rigidity of the Church.
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Beautiful
Guest
The situation is heart breaking and terrible.
If you read earlier posts then you would see that the step father and abortionist (actually all Catholic abortionists) have already effectively excommunicated themselves from the Church by the very nature of their heinous crimes. No public announcements from the Church is necessary for stepfather in this particular case. It is a given until he repents.
Keep in mind that this particular situation isn’t unique! Many females all around the world are victims of rape and incest. Perpetrators of these crimes are - in more than essence - excommunicated.
The mother on the other hand purposely and publicly brought her daughter to the abortionist. She too can repent and be forgiven.
Publicly and purposely have an abortion? Expect excommunication until repentance.
What** I would like to see** are more Catholic political figures who publicly tout abortion be publicly excommunicated. These people have already committed murder via words and actions.
It can be a win-win situation for mother, stepfather and abortionist if they repent.
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catharina
Guest
If we were to act according to feelings rather than acording to faith, many might find it to be wonderfully satisfying to take both parents, mother and step-father, out into the public square and execute them in some excruciating way. However, we are called to act according to faith. Faith teaches us that the willful destruction and death of the totally defenseless unborn is a matter of the gravest sin and those who act to destroy these helpless lives shall be held accountable in a public manner.
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cathgal
Guest
Civilized world?
Ya think?
There are many things in this world that are not supposed to happened, but it happened anyway. The Catholic Church calls it sin.
Just because others sin doesn’t mean the Church has to play along. The Church is NOT everyone’s church. It’s Christ’s!
God’s law has been revealed. Obey or not, your choice.
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cathgal
Guest
It is not the question of whether excommunication will undo what happened. The point is, regardless of what the circumstance is, murder of an innocent person is ***never **never never ***right. Why can’t people understand this ??
You think this is the first time people will question the rigidity of the Church. You must have been born yesterday.
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Ailina
Guest
Okay, so to make a public example of a woman and mother who is probably already in a great deal of anguish because of a situation she did not cause (betrayal by her spouse, the horrific and shocking pregnancy of her daughter) serves what purpose??? To publicly condemn her, but NOT the actions of the step-father smacks of a complete lack of compassion. Do you really think Jesus would have acted like the archbishop has done?
Has it occurred to the archbishop that the mother may also not be thinking clearly, given the circumstances? Where is the justice and mercy here? It just reminds people of the Church’s lack of action on the pedophile priests of the very recent past, who merely received a slap on the wrist despite the monstrous damage done to so many young victims in other sexual assault cases. Where is the justice and mercy?
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cathgal
Guest
Death is inescapable. We will all die one way or another. Some sooner. Some later. But why do murder because we want to live a little longer. You rather kill the soul than the body? It is the soul that lives forever, so take care that you don’t lose it.
I’d would tell the 9 year old that if it’s God’s will that she’ll leave this world soon, then she will, but she’d be with God because she trusts in Him to do the right thing.
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Gerry_Hunter
Guest
Let us not lose sight of the particulars. The pregnancy was dangerous, yes. The doctors at the first hospital were aware of the dangers, but also that the danger had not materialized. They refused therefore to abort, because under secular law, they did not have cause to, quite apart from the moral considerations. The mother moved the girl to another hospital, where doctors were willing to murder her grandchildren.
This was not the prosthetic removal of tonsils or an appendix. It was the direct ending of 2 lives. They did not intervene in response to a specific development.
The end never justifies the means. These 2 infants died because of a direct act against them. They were treated like tonsils or an appendix.
Blessings,
Gerry
This was not the prosthetic removal of tonsils or an appendix. It was the direct ending of 2 lives. They did not intervene in response to a specific development.
The end never justifies the means. These 2 infants died because of a direct act against them. They were treated like tonsils or an appendix.
Blessings,
Gerry
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oldcelt
Guest
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josie_L
Guest
I understand the Church condemns abortion (and I applaud this) but why was it necessary to excommunicate (and publicly), considering the delicacy of the situation.
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Michael96
Guest
What a sad story.
I think, in this case, the Bishop should have kept his own council and declined to comment publically; the Church looks uncaring, unmerciful and incompassionate.
My heart goes out to the daughter and the mother - what a dreadful situation to find yourselves in. And the last thing you need is for your Church to add to your pains by making public proclaimations about what a dreadful person you are (worse, pointing out that they consider you worse than a man who rapes children). I pray they soon find the caring, compassionate and loving pastoral care they desperately need.
I think, in this case, the Bishop should have kept his own council and declined to comment publically; the Church looks uncaring, unmerciful and incompassionate.
My heart goes out to the daughter and the mother - what a dreadful situation to find yourselves in. And the last thing you need is for your Church to add to your pains by making public proclaimations about what a dreadful person you are (worse, pointing out that they consider you worse than a man who rapes children). I pray they soon find the caring, compassionate and loving pastoral care they desperately need.
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Holly3278
Guest
I strongly applaud everyone involved in this condemnation! Those twins had every right to live! I don’t care if the girl was 6! Those twins still had a right to live!
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Middleman
Guest
That’s just the type of statement that can make pro-life people look like fanatical ideologues. You don’t care if the girl was 6?
I care. I care about that innocent child who was violated so cruelly. I wonder at a Bishop that makes a proclamation such as this, condemning the doctors and the parent who are trying to protect her health. Then, the scumbag who put her in that position in the first place to gratify his own sick lust gets a slap on the wrist by the Church?
This case makes the Catholic Church look like it’s run by a bunch of misogynistic, out of touch old men who are devoted to the letter of the law, not the spirit of it. Just my:twocents:
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