Brazil Church condemns abortion of twins

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VATICAN CITY, MARCH 18, 2009 (Zenit.org).- The Pontifical Academy for Life president is lamenting the recently aborted Brazilian twins of a nine-year-old girl, and is calling the consequent excommunication of those who cooperated in it “precipitous.”

In an article published Sunday in L’Osservatore Romano, Archishop Rino Fisichella spoke about the case of a young Brazilian girl who was repeatedly raped by her stepfather, and was expecting twins. In early March, an abortion was performed on the girl, who is just over 52 inches tall and weighs 79 pounds.

The case drew even more controversy when Archbishop José Cardoso Sobrinho of Olinda and Recife excommunicated the mother and all the members of the medical team, generating criticisms against the Church in Brazil.

Archbishop Fisichella lamented the precipitous condemnation in such a morally delicate case. Referring to the excommunication “latae sententiae” [automatically incurred at the moment of the act], he said that “such urgency and publicity was not necessary.”

What is most needed at this time, he explained, “is the sign of a testimony of closeness with the one suffering, an act of mercy that, even while firmly maintaining the principle, is able to look beyond the juridical sphere.”

It is true that the girl “carried within her innocent lives like her own, though the fruit of violence, and they have been done away with; however, this is not enough to pass a judgment that weighs as a condemnation,” he added.

Mercy over justice

The archbishop lamented the image given by the Church in this case, as “before giving thought to excommunication, it was necessary and urgent to safeguard the innocent life of this girl, and return her to a level of humanity of which we, men of the Church, should be expert heralds and teachers.”

In this case, he said, the girl “should in the first place have been defended, embraced, caressed with tenderness to make her feel that we are all with her.”

He stated that Archbishop Sobrinho’s “hasty” reaction has caused resentment and has undermined the credibility of the Church’s teaching, “which in the eyes of many seems insensitive, incomprehensible and lacking in mercy.”

Archbishop Fisichella emphasized that the condemnation of abortion as an intrinsic evil is one of the moral principles which the Church cannot overlook even if she wished to. However, he pointed out that the present case “was very delicate,” and that “to treat it expeditiously does not do justice” either to the fragile person of the girl or to all those involved in the case.

The prelate also noted that, unfortunately, a case like this “would have passed unnoticed, as so many similar ones, if it was not for the uproar of the reactions caused by the bishop’s intervention.”

He affirmed, “Violence to a woman, already grave in itself, assumes an even more blameworthy dimension when the one suffering is a girl, with the additional burden of poverty and the social degradation in which she lives.”

“There are no adequate words to condemn incidents such as this one,” added the prelate.

Medical dilemma

Archbishop Fisichella acknowledged that in this case it is hard to make specific judgments while doing justice to truth, given that the doctors were faced with a very grave moral dilemma.

In regard to the girl, he stated, “because of her very young age and her precarious health conditions, her life was in serious danger by the pregnancy under way.” He continued: “How should one act in such cases? It is an arduous decision for the doctors and for the moral law itself.”

The prelate said, “Scenes such as this, though with a different casuistry, are repeated daily in resuscitation rooms, and the doctor’s conscience is alone at the moment of deciding what is the best thing to do.”

For any doctor, unless he is insensitive, “a choice such as this of saving a life knowing that he puts another in serious danger, is not easily lived,” he added.

The archbishop noted, “In any case, no one comes to a decision of this sort with ease; it is unjust and offensive just to think of it.”

Grave crime

In the same vein, Archbishop Geraldo Lyrio Rocha of Mariana, president of the Brazilian bishops’ conference, publicly lamented last week that “the most repugnant aspect of this case was diluted, given the controversy over the excommunication.”

However, as a March 6 statement from the conference pointed out, the real problem is “the increase of cases of abuse of minors in the country,” a topic “on which the national conscience must be awakened.”

The prelate also clarified that the penalty of excommunication “is not synonymous with condemnation to hell, but is a disciplinary act of the Church,” which attempts “to call the attention of consciences to an intrinsically grave act, of whose gravity at times there is no clear perception.”

He also pointed out that Archbishop Sobrinho himself “has not excommunicated anyone,” given that, according to the law of the Church, excommunication is automatic when an abortion is carried out.

Moreover, he clarified that “to incur an excommunication, the person must be conscious of the gravity of the act and have the freedom to practice it,” which in this case excludes the minor and no doubt also her mother, “who acted under pressure.”

So we have the Church’s Official position in this case…

Is that good enough for those of you that just repeat ‘Church Law’ ad nauseun?

Are you going to argue that the Church is wrong now in taking a ‘lenient’ view?
 
Throughout this thread people have explained that the bishop denounced the man’s crime. No bishop said or implies that his crimes were "not incompatible with reception of the Eucharists, as you allege. The man has committed a mortal sin many times, and cannot receive the Eucharist until he repents and confesses.

Aside from the medicinal effect of trying to bring a serious sinner to his orher senses, excommnication is supposed to show to the rest of the Faithful whom not to follow, what not to do, in cases of confusion. Do you think that anyone would claim that raping girls is all right? No. There is no confusion there. Everyone understands the hideous nature of the man’s crime and there is no confusion about it.

However, in the world in which we live today, there is confusion *even among Catholics *about the nature of abortion. There are Catholics who think it is all right; there are Catholics who think in certain circumstances it is all right; there are Catholics who think it is none of our business.

But they are *all wrong. *The excommunication is to show that *even in this case, *abortion is as wrong or more wrong than the rape committed by the father.

It is the task of the Church to teach, not to sit around and let people think whatever they want. It is the task of the bishops to lead and protect the souls under their care. Those two little babies were *also *souls under their care, and the bishops did what they could to protect them for God. Moreover, those who are constantly having abortion pushed down their throats as a solution also need care.

The socialist government and media of Brazil wanted to use this case to *expand *thelegality of abortion in their country. The bishops are fighting that. I applaud them.

And, btw, do you really think that the spin given this by the media is accurate? Why don’t you cut the bishops some slack until you find out both sides before criticizing them?
You are right in some degree, but I stand by my statement. The bishop did not declare him excommunicated; he did declare the mother excommunicated. To me that means that the mother’s act is incompatible with full communion with the Church, but his is not. As you suggest, the bishop said that the father did not need to be excommunicated because most people know rape is wrong, but that he needed to make a lesson out of the mother. So this is the standard now, the Church denies the Sacraments not based on the parishoner’s own acts, but based on the perceived value of the excommunication as a teaching tool? This is tantamount to an admission that he did it for the publicity. That is objectively wrong.

As for who is spinning what, I base my view of the facts entirely on what is reported by the Catholic press and on statements from Vatican officials. The head of the Pontifical Academy for Life has said that the bishops should not have rushed to make this public, and has also criticised the focus on the mother when there were “others” that deserved excommunication. But all of that is in the stories already linked to (repeatedly) in this thread, so you must know that.
 
Abortion is the direct killing of an innocent person and is always wrong. However, in the case of an ectopic pregnancy it is morally permissible to remove the baby in the fallopian tube in order to save the life of the mother. This does not kill the baby directly but, the baby dies because of natural causes. The same can be applied to this case. The mothers life must be preserved and the pregnancy can be closely monitored. If it is determined that the mother will not survive giving birth then the babies can be removed. Or they could wait until viability to induce them if it is determined that is the best option. The adults involved in this abortion should be excommunicated since they directly killed innocent lives.
 
I am strongly pro-life. But I believe this is the one exception. I really hope the Vatican intervenes here and takes a closer look at this case. We should be praying for these people.
I have to disagree with you here. Abortion is always wrong. If you are strongly pro-life you would not believe there is an exception.
 
Abortion is the direct killing of an innocent person and is always wrong. However, in the case of an ectopic pregnancy it is morally permissible to remove the baby in the fallopian tube in order to save the life of the mother. This does not kill the baby directly but, the baby dies because of natural causes.
Almost.

In the case of an ectopic pregnancy, it is morrally permissable to remove the fallopian tube or the portion of it that is causing the inflamation (usual way ectopic pregnancy is diagnosed). It is not morally permissable to remove just the baby - unless it is determined that the baby has already died.
 
VATICAN CITY, MARCH 18, 2009 (Zenit.org).- The Pontifical Academy for Life president is lamenting the recently aborted Brazilian twins of a nine-year-old girl, and is calling the consequent excommunication of those who cooperated in it “precipitous.”

In an article published Sunday in L’Osservatore Romano, Archishop Rino Fisichella spoke about the case of a young Brazilian girl who was repeatedly raped by her stepfather, and was expecting twins. In early March, an abortion was performed on the girl, who is just over 52 inches tall and weighs 79 pounds.

So we have the Church’s Official position in this case…

Is that good enough for those of you that just repeat ‘Church Law’ ad nauseun?

Are you going to argue that the Church is wrong now in taking a ‘lenient’ view?
No we don’t have official Church position in the article you are citing. This was not an official notification from the Pontifical Academy for Life. This was a newspaper interview. The PAfL isn’t even the group at the Vatican that would be issuing an official determination. They are not a judicial group at all. An appeal would go to the Congregation for the Defense of the Faith and would not be promulgated by a newspaper article.

Archbishop Fisichella is entitled to his opinion but he has no authority to overrule the local Bishop in this type of matter.
 
You are right in some degree, but I stand by my statement. The bishop did not declare him excommunicated; he did declare the mother excommunicated. To me that means that the mother’s act is incompatible with full communion with the Church, but his is not. As you suggest, the bishop said that the father did not need to be excommunicated because most people know rape is wrong, but that he needed to make a lesson out of the mother. So this is the standard now, the Church denies the Sacraments not based on the parishoner’s own acts, but based on the perceived value of the excommunication as a teaching tool? This is tantamount to an admission that he did it for the publicity. That is objectively wrong.
Abortion incurrs automatic excommunication - that’s canon law.
Rape and abuse are mortal sins and incur eternal damnation if not repented and confessed. There is no law that covers those particular sins.

Excommunication isn’t the only way a person gets denied the Sacraments. But excommunication is strictly governed by canon law. There is nothing the Bishop could have done to excommunicate the rapist.

The *standard * is for our Bishops to follow the law of the Church. This was a horible and extrordinary situation. The Bishop followed canon law. You can argue with his manner or his supposed lack of compassion (see post #410 for more on that) but you can’t argue that the excommunication was injust any more than you can argue about a traffic ticket when you are going 80mph.
 
The socialist government and media of Brazil wanted to use this case to expand thelegality of abortion in their country. The bishops are fighting that. I applaud them.

What an amazing thing to say!!!

'm Brazilian, what do YOU know about Brazil??

We do not have a ‘socialist’ government. And so now this was all apolitical plot…
Americans!:mad:
I will admit that I know little of Brazilian politics except what I read in the papers and hear from a friend in Brazil. Lula’s government was described as socialist, possibly because his party has a name commonly associated with socialism (Workers’ Party) and because some of the things he has wanted to do include socialist things like land redistribution. It seems that he has moderated some of his positions and that some socialists ahve left his party because they were further to the left, and that he has appointed some very non-socialist people to his cabinet. I am sorry for having taken the word of the newspaper articles.

However, in terms of abortion, it is reported that the government wants to expand the legality of abortion and that there is support for this, and that the media supports the expansion as well. I have seen indications of this elsewhere (not just in articles about this particular case). So in that area, I do not know if I am getting accurate information or not, perhaps if this is not the case, you can let us know.
I’m reminded of the case of the Irish girl, during Pope John Paul Pontificat… did anyone get excomunicated then? No, the Pope prayed for the family… He did not accuse, no one shouted excommunication…
ISTM that the girl in Ireland miscarried before she was able to get an abortion?
As for me I leave the judging to GOD
The Church is the Body of Christ, instituted to, among other things, *teach *and *govern. *Humans can judge the state of *an action; *what we cannot determine is the ultimate fate of a *soul; *it is for this reason that the Church has never declared anyone to be in Hell. The Church is perfectly within Her rights to excommunicate people and has done so throughout Her history.
If we’re going to talk about sin and excommunication… Do killers get excommunicated? Do rapists get excommunicated?
Yes, killers get excommunicated, what do you think we are discussing here? People who procure or perform an abortion are automatically excommunicated…

Now, as to those who kill those already born or those who rape, does the civil government not deal with them? Are there people who think that maybe we should legalize the murder of those already born? Are there people who think that we should legalize rape?

No! There is *no confusion *over these matters–there is almost unanimous agreement that murderers and rapists are committing very bad acts and need to be punished, and those people are punished by the civil government.

However, there does exist confusion over abortion, and many civil governments do not protect the unborn the way they protect those who are born. Suppose the girl’s pregnancy had not been discovered until after she had given birth, and then the babies had been killed? Would that not have provoked great outrage, the way stories about women abandoning their newborns in trash cans or airplanes do?
I think you people don’t get it… ultimately we all carry some of this guilt you talk so much about.
Yes, we all need to pray harder for conversions…
“Judge not lest you be judged”
I’m faithful to the Catholic Church but I also know that My God is a Merciful God
Is your God the same God as the God of the Catholic Church?
 
First things first, the Church’s oficial view on the matter has comforted me alot… shows that they can be a little lenient and understanding which is what as i understand is what the Church and our religion is meant to be…

For those who defend that bishop and say he was completely right in being so blunt well then you are ignorant… do you honestly think that is the way to get people to convert or for young people to get close to the religion… no… i think the Vatican realised this and i am elated at it…

And thank you for all those who agreed that more has to be done in order to explain the teachings of the bible, especially to those who are young… its hard enough for devout Catholics like yourselfs 2 agree let alone Catholic’s like me or non-believers…

I was very angry at hearing the bishops initial response to the whole situation… but now i have read all the explanantions and i have read the Vaticans response I understand… so for all those who say that explaining would not have made a difference then that is simply not true…

To Summarise… What we need in our society is more explaining… bring us the uneducated ones closer by being understanding and less judging and explaining to us what the bible teaches… not by simply reading it but explaining it passage by passage…

How often do u go church and a passage is read and it is not even explained… imagine you were some1 who went into church for the first time… they would not understand at all and would not feel like they got a connection with the bible simply because they did not understand it…

i hope you take my views into consideration…
 
First things first, the Church’s oficial view on the matter has comforted me alot… shows that they can be a little lenient and understanding which is what as i understand is what the Church and our religion is meant to be…

For those who defend that bishop and say he was completely right in being so blunt well then you are ignorant… do you honestly think that is the way to get people to convert or for young people to get close to the religion… no… i think the Vatican realised this and i am elated at it…

And thank you for all those who agreed that more has to be done in order to explain the teachings of the bible, especially to those who are young… its hard enough for devout Catholics like yourselfs 2 agree let alone Catholic’s like me or non-believers…

I was very angry at hearing the bishops initial response to the whole situation… but now i have read all the explanantions and i have read the Vaticans response I understand… so for all those who say that explaining would not have made a difference then that is simply not true…

To Summarise… What we need in our society is more explaining… bring us the uneducated ones closer by being understanding and less judging and explaining to us what the bible teaches… not by simply reading it but explaining it passage by passage…

How often do u go church and a passage is read and it is not even explained… imagine you were some1 who went into church for the first time… they would not understand at all and would not feel like they got a connection with the bible simply because they did not understand it…

i hope you take my views into consideration…
I agree that it is necessary to explain. It is necessary to catechize and seek to be catetized. We all need to understand our Faith. We need to understand the need to obey the commands of God and follow the precepts of the Faith.

We need to understand that the Church must follow Jesus’ teachings. We need to understand that we have to take up our cross daily and follow Jesus - this is not easy. We need to understand the redemptive aspects of suffering.

Being a Catholic Christian is not easy.

God bless you
🙂
 
First things first, the Church’s oficial view on the matter has comforted me alot… shows that they can be a little lenient and understanding which is what as i understand is what the Church and our religion is meant to be…

For those who defend that bishop and say he was completely right in being so blunt well then you are ignorant… do you honestly think that is the way to get people to convert or for young people to get close to the religion… no… i think the Vatican realised this and i am elated at it…
I think you have a point, but one thing is that the news accounts are usually spun. Some of the stories I read about the article didn’t even mention that the Bishop said that what the stepfather did was heinous, and the journalists certainly didn’t do their jobs and report some background info that readers might not know.

OTOH, I think that you are right in that communications in the Church are somewhat lacking. For example, catechesis–teaching–has for a couple of generations now been severely lacking (and as a side note to those who will blame V2: there was a problem with catechisis before that too!). Too many people in general, and too many Catholics in particular, are ignorant of even the basic truths of our glorious Faith!

I would invite you and all those interested in this aspect of the story–the lack of understanding and explanation–to another thread where we can discuss it without derailing this thread. I think it would be great to get ideas about how best to communicate with people who are in need of explanations 🙂
 
Absolutely correct, TMC. (and I’ve read this entire thread)
The compounded cruelty to this little girl and her mother are horrific. How can this stepfather’s CRIME be seen as anything but the degradation and violation of this child. It is good that this story has been in the public eye. It shows the lack of compassion and oppression that these people endure. I am praying for everyone involved. :gopray2:
But wasn’t the cruelty to the child compounded by having her go through the abortion?:mad:

Would the excommunication of the Mother and the rest of the family been easier to deal with if it had been made public that the step father’s actions were also excommunicated?:confused:

Is that the problem? “You yelled at me, but I didn’t hear you yell at him?”:eek:
 
But wasn’t the cruelty to the child compounded by having her go through the abortion?:mad:

Would the excommunication of the Mother and the rest of the family been easier to deal with if it had been made public that the step father’s actions were also excommunicated?:confused:

Is that the problem? “You yelled at me, but I didn’t hear you yell at him?”:eek:
If the Stepfather were excommunicated then every time one of us committed a Mortal sin we would be excommunicated!!:whacky:

As I see it the reason for the excommunication is because it would set a precedent and then we would have a culture of death where Abortion would be OK in certain circumstances.

Abortion is never OK no matter what! Even the law - if I were to commit murder by killing someone who killed my friend would the law let me off the hook? No! I would be tried and probably have to go to goal. It is just that in our secular society the pro-choicers do not see Abortion as murder - they do not see the termination of a heartbeat and the dismembering of an unborn child as murder. Inconceivable but true:eek::eek:
 
Nao ha justificacao para matar os gemios - eh um grande pecado. Nao ha duvida que o caso e terrivel e sentimos pena da miuda mas nao se pode matar ninguin seja quem for!

Pax
Cinette
Um… do you care to translate? At least tell us which language this was done in so we could get it translated. :confused:

This is a message board. It’s not intended for private comments. This is akin to whispering.😦

Besides, unless you know you are fluent, it’s a good chance that you meant to say one thing, but said another any way.
😊
 
If the Stepfather were excommunicated then every time one of us committed a Mortal sin we would be excommunicated!!
That’s not the point of my question::confused:

The point is simply that the complaints I’m seeing on this board, on this thread, are that the mother and the rest of the family were excommunicated BUT THE RAPIST STEPFATHER WAS NOT.:mad:

So, I’m curious: if the stepfather had been publicly excommunicated, would they then be able to deal with the people who had the abortion excommunicated?:confused:

I’m not debating the whys and ethics of excommunication, at all! :o
 
If the Stepfather were excommunicated then every time one of us committed a Mortal sin we would be excommunicated!!:whacky:
In effect, we are excommunicated when we commit a mortal sin, because we are not permitted to “communicate” or to receive Communion.
As I see it the reason for the excommunication is because it would set a precedent and then we would have a culture of death where Abortion would be OK in certain circumstances.
I think that this did not turn out to be what you meant. Were you thinking that the excommunication was announced in order to make it clear that even a horrible case like this one does not “justify” an abortion? To avoid the ideas which lead to occasional “permissability” of abortion?
Abortion is never OK no matter what! Even the law - if I were to commit murder by killing someone who killed my friend would the law let me off the hook? No! I would be tried and probably have to go to goal. It is just that in our secular society the pro-choicers do not see Abortion as murder - they do not see the termination of a heartbeat and the dismembering of an unborn child as murder. Inconceivable but true:eek::eek:
I totally agree.
 
"That scenario raises legitimate questions about the mother’s UN-involvement in “protecting” this child."

Since sexual abuse is done in secrecy, it is very hard to detect, isn’t it? Why was no one aware of pedophilic priests for all these years? Because of secrecy and cover-ups. This mother may very well not have been aware of the sexual abuse of her daughters. So why blame her for the actions of her deceitful spouse?

People here are saying that the step-father is automatically excommunicated by the abuse he committed. That is a bunch of baloney, because to follow that line of reasoning, the mother also automatically ex-communicated herself through her own actions as well, in which case there was no need for a public comment by the archbishop stating that he ex-communicated her.

The fact is, sexual assault of minor children is every bit as devastating as the abortions that came about because of it. Yet that sexual assault of a SIX YEAR OLD CHILD appears to be of little consequence. It is this kind of attitude that allows this kind of horror to be inflicted upon children in the first place.

I stand by my comments that the archbishop could have shown some compassion and mercy in this horrific case, yet did not. He behaved very much like the pharisees that Jesus was always condemning.

Btw, many saints of the past were known for criticizing the clergy of their day. To err is human, even if you are a leader of the Church!
Thank you, also to middleman, francesmarx, and others who are showing compassion for a brutalized nine year old girl.

I am horrified by some of the comments-cathgirl who would tell a nine year old girl she has to die after being raped, what is wrong with this picture? What kind of church treats a child that way? It is seriously damaging for a child that age to carry a baby, especially after being raped by a stepfather! I don’t understand the serious lack of compassion on this board for this little girl and her family. I can understand the sadness of two lives lost but in an extreme situation like this where is the love and concern for the little girl? Honestly I can understand non Catholics dislike of the Church after some of these comments. I won’t come to this board ever again and I am seriously rethinking staying with a church that thinks raping a child is ok-which is basically the message that was sent.
 
in an extreme situation like this where is the love and concern for the little girl? Honestly I can understand non Catholics dislike of the Church after some of these comments. I won’t come to this board ever again and I am seriously rethinking staying with a church that thinks raping a child is ok-which is basically the message that was sent.
What about the love and concern for the baby?
Do two wrongs make a right?

Raping a child is NEVER okay and this is not the message being sent.
The message being sent is a respect for all life no matter what stage of development a life is at. This is consistent with 2 milleniums of Church teaching - no abortion period.

Science says human life begins at conception. The chromosomes are intact, traits such as hair colour and eye colour are determined and there are characteristics distinct from the mother - so we have a new unique individual life. What right does anyone have to take an innocent life away. Within 18 days there is a beating heart!

There have been cases before of young women having survived pregnancy.

The Didache, the first written Church document we have, is dated by some to 70 AD. Now weren’t Ss Peter, Paul, John etc still alive then. It clearly says (without need of clarification)…

**Didache 2:2 “do not murder a child by abortion” **

ccel.org/ccel/richardson/fathers.viii.i.iii.html

Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born" - Letter of Barnabas 74 AD.

“I cannot bring myself to speak of the many virgins who daily fall and are lost to the bosom of the Church, their mother. . . . Some go so far as to take potions, that they may insure barrenness, and thus murder human beings almost before their conception. Some, when they find themselves with child through their sin, use drugs to procure abortion, and when, as often happens, they die with their offspring, they enter the lower world laden with the guilt not only of adultery against Christ but also of suicide and child murder” - St Jerome 396 AD

Thou shall not slay thy child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. . . . f it be slain, [it] shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed" - Apostolic Constitutions 7:3 400 AD
 
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