Brazil Church condemns abortion of twins

[St_Francis]

Thank you, also to middleman, francesmarx, and others who are showing compassion for a brutalized nine year old girl.

I am horrified by some of the comments-cathgirl who would tell a nine year old girl she has to die after being raped, what is wrong with this picture? What kind of church treats a child that way? It is seriously damaging for a child that age to carry a baby, especially after being raped by a stepfather! I don’t understand the serious lack of compassion on this board for this little girl and her family. I can understand the sadness of two lives lost but in an extreme situation like this where is the love and concern for the little girl? Honestly I can understand non Catholics dislike of the Church after some of these comments. I won’t come to this board ever again and I am seriously rethinking staying with a church that thinks raping a child is ok-which is basically the message that was sent.

The Church has expressed compassion for the little girl. The Church *also *expressed compassion for the two babies involved, who were about this age:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[catharina]

What about the love and concern for the baby?
Do two wrongs make a right?

Raping a child is NEVER okay and this is not the message being sent.
The message being sent is a respect for all life no matter what stage of development a life is at. This is consistent with 2 milleniums of Church teaching - no abortion period.

Science says human life begins at conception. The chromosomes are intact, traits such as hair colour and eye colour are determined and there are characteristics distinct from the mother - so we have a new unique individual life. What right does anyone have to take an innocent life away. Within 18 days there is a beating heart!

There have been cases before of young women having survived pregnancy.

The Didache, the first written Church document we have, is dated by some to 70 AD. Now weren’t Ss Peter, Paul, John etc still alive then. It clearly says (without need of clarification)…

**Didache 2:2 “do not murder a child by abortion” **

ccel.org/ccel/richardson/fathers.viii.i.iii.html

Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born" - Letter of Barnabas 74 AD.

“I cannot bring myself to speak of the many virgins who daily fall and are lost to the bosom of the Church, their mother. . . . Some go so far as to take potions, that they may insure barrenness, and thus murder human beings almost before their conception. Some, when they find themselves with child through their sin, use drugs to procure abortion, and when, as often happens, they die with their offspring, they enter the lower world laden with the guilt not only of adultery against Christ but also of suicide and child murder” - St Jerome 396 AD

Thou shall not slay thy child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. . . . f it be slain, [it] shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed" - Apostolic Constitutions 7:3 400 AD

These are wonderful quotes.
Thanks for your post.

 

[Cinette]

In effect, we are excommunicated when we commit a mortal sin, because we are not permitted to “communicate” or to receive Communion.

Good point!

I think that this did not turn out to be what you meant. Were you thinking that the excommunication was announced in order to make it clear that even a horrible case like this one does not “justify” an abortion? To avoid the ideas which lead to occasional “permissability” of abortion?

Well put - yes, you have articulated it very well - thank you

I totally agree.

 

[Cinette]

Thank you, also to middleman, francesmarx, and others who are showing compassion for a brutalized nine year old girl.

I am horrified by some of the comments-cathgirl who would tell a nine year old girl she has to die after being raped, what is wrong with this picture? I am a Mother and a Grandmother and I know how I would feel - this should not have to happen to a child. But to compound it by performing an abortion is worse. So you think that killing those twins was the right thing to do? What kind of church treats a child that way? What did the Catholic do to the child? It is seriously damaging for a child that age to carry a baby, especially after being raped by a stepfather! I don’t understand the serious lack of compassion on this board for this little girl and her family. I am sorry that you cannot see the big picture. I can understand the sadness of two lives lost but in an extreme situation like this where is the love and concern for the little girl? So if I killed my neighbour’s husband for raping her little girl what would happen to me?Honestly I can understand non Catholics dislike of the Church after some of these comments. I won’t come to this board ever again and I am seriously rethinking staying with a church that thinks raping a child is ok-which is basically the message that was sent.You obviously are not properly catechised. If you decide to leave the Church and turn your back on the Eucharist then you had better take a good look at yourself because that is very serious. But then, since you do not know your faith…

 

[aicirt]

Hmmm. If the doctors, etc. live in the diocese where Archbishop Sobrinho is ordnary, I don’t think the Conference of Bishops can override him. Bishops conferences don’t work that way. If someone disagrees with an excommunication it is appealed to the Rota, not to the local bishop’s conference. We saw this locally with the Nebraska excommunications for dissident groups (which were upheld).

There is something very wrong here. First of all the penalty of latea sententiae is not reserved only to doctors who “systematically” conduct abortions. Per canon 1398 “a person who procures **a **successful abortion incurs an automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication.”

and canon 1329 says " Accomplices who are not named in a law or precept incur a latae sententiae penalty attached to a delict if without their assistance the delict would not have been committed, and the penalty is of such a nature that it can affect them; otherwise, they can be punished by ferendae sententiae penalties."

So this seems to cover the doctors specifically even if this is the first abortion they committed.

Secondly, excommunication isn’t being thrown out of the Catholic Church. Either this spokesperson is really weak in his understanding of Chuch law or there was a serious error of translation.

I read that the Church excommunicated the Bolsheviks. Surely there must be some circumstances when the excommunicated are forbidden to enter the Church? Granted, a Bolshevik wouldn’t have been deterred by an excommunication.

 

[St_Francis]

I read that the Church excommunicated the Bolsheviks. Surely there must be some circumstances when the excommunicated are forbidden to enter the Church? Granted, a Bolshevik wouldn’t have been deterred by an excommunication.

Used to be that those who were excommunicated were not permitted to go to Mass and some other things–I think that there were two levels of excommunication, the stronger of which involved a sort of shunning by other Catholics as well. Now, however, excommunicates are still considered to fall under the same obligations (such as Sunday worship) as other Catholics. I don’t know if there are other levels or not.

 

[Corki]

Thank you, also to middleman, francesmarx, and others who are showing compassion for a brutalized nine year old girl.

I am horrified by some of the comments-cathgirl who would tell a nine year old girl she has to die after being raped, what is wrong with this picture? What kind of church treats a child that way? It is seriously damaging for a child that age to carry a baby, especially after being raped by a stepfather! I don’t understand the serious lack of compassion on this board for this little girl and her family. I can understand the sadness of two lives lost but in an extreme situation like this where is the love and concern for the little girl? Honestly I can understand non Catholics dislike of the Church after some of these comments. I won’t come to this board ever again and I am seriously rethinking staying with a church that thinks raping a child is ok-which is basically the message that was sent.

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Yes, that would be horrifying, but NOBODY SAID THAT. No one wanted the girl to die. No one even suggested she carry the babies to term. She was at least 4 (some of the reports say 5) months pregnant and in no immediate danger. Waiting just a few weeks more until the babies *could have *survived is all anyone was asking.

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Find me just one post in all of CAF that says that raping a child is ok. You won’t find it because no one has said anything like that.

Do you really think that killing the two babies will un-rape this little girl? No, it just victimizes her again and adds two more victims.

 

[Corki]

First things first, the Church’s oficial view on the matter has comforted me alot… shows that they can be a little lenient and understanding which is what as i understand is what the Church and our religion is meant to be…

…

The “official” view of the matter is the statement by Archbishop Jose Cardoso Sobrinho the Bishop of Olinda and Recife. There have been other opinions but the Archbishop’s word is the official one unless and until it gets appealed to Rome.

And thank you for all those who agreed that more has to be done in order to explain the teachings of the bible, especially to those who are young… its hard enough for devout Catholics like yourselfs 2 agree let alone Catholic’s like me or non-believers…

I think everybody agrees that more needs to be done to get the teachings of the Church “out there” especially for the young.

I was very angry at hearing the bishops initial response to the whole situation… but now i have read all the explanantions and i have read the Vaticans response I understand… so for all those who say that explaining would not have made a difference then that is simply not true…

Again, what has been posted in this thread is not the Vatican’s official response. It is a newspaper interview with the President of the Pontifical Academy for Life. His is an important voice but in this matter he has no jurisdiction.

I hope you also read Archbishop Sobrinho’s account and see how much explaining has been done and is still being done.

 

[Apryl]

The fact is, sexual assault of minor children is every bit as devastating as the abortions that came about because of it. Yet that sexual assault of a SIX YEAR OLD CHILD appears to be of little consequence. It is this kind of attitude that allows this kind of horror to be inflicted upon children in the first place.

I stand by my comments that the archbishop could have shown some compassion and mercy in this horrific case, yet did not. He behaved very much like the pharisees that Jesus was always condemning.

I think I’ve asked this before, in this thread, but so far, no answer:

How does having the abortion un-do the raping that was done to her when she was 6 years old?

How compassionate are we to a 9 year old to have her go through the personal trauma of an abortion?

 

[fix]

I can understand the sadness of two lives

Your wording gives you away. The two lives would have been “lost” if the doctors tried to save both mom and children but unintentionally one of them died. What did happen is not that. What did happen is that they willed that the children be killed. That is direct abortion. That is evil. That evil does not mean people have no compassion of the poor little girl. It does mean we rightly dissect the situation rather than simply clinging to moral relativism.

 

[Apryl]

It is seriously damaging for a child that age to carry a baby, especially after being raped by a stepfather!

Are you a medical doctor?

But what authority are you making this claim?

How does her being raped by her step father make the pregnancy any harder on her body?

I’m not asking you what you think, or are uncomfortable with. I’m asking you where you get your facts from? Or do you have any facts?

 

[Apryl]

Do you really think that killing the two babies will un-rape this little girl? No, it just victimizes her again and adds two more victims.

This seems to be the point that so many don’t want to get: It doesn’t UNDO the damage that was done to her to do more damage to her (mentally, physically, spiritually) and to also make her take part in the death of someone else.

How many in here would say that they’ve played a role in the death of someone else? And how many are ok with that death? Imagine a 9 year old having to deal with that? What has to happen to her to make death, esp death of an innocent child ok to her?

 

[Cinette]

I think I’ve asked this before, in this thread, but so far, no answer:

How does having the abortion un-do the raping that was done to her when she was 6 years old?

How compassionate are we to a 9 year old to have her go through the personal trauma of an abortion?

People forget the psychological effects of abortion which in a number of cases has led to suicide. Many women have spoken of depression and much suffering.

The 9 year old has to suffer the effects of abuse and now this has been compounded with the abortion.

:sad_yes:

 

[kmleo]

God’s Word speaks for itself. Read Mark 16:22-23.

*From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.

Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, “God forbid, Lord! No such thing shall ever happen to you.”

He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.” *

So what I want to know here is, are who here on this thread is thinking as God does and who is thinking as human beings do? Because it seems obvious to me that only human beings, who have finite knowledge and a finite ability to love, would limit their thinking to say that destroying the babies somehow makes this girl’s situation any better. You sound like Peter, especially the “pro-lifers” who support the abortion. Peter couldn’t stomach the idea of his friend dying a tragic death, and tried to talk Jesus out of being the salvation for all mankind. Can you imagine where we would all be had Jesus listened to him? So here we are, a bunch of Peters, who’ll never know who God tried to bring into our midst through the cross of a 9-year-old girl because human beings put their own logic first. How can anyone who worships a man brutally beaten and crucified deny that tragedy can’t be used by God for His Glory? Two humans died, and the world is, I dare say, worse off for it.

God Bless You All. The fact that you care enough to post gives me hope.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I agree. And if the Bishop excommunicated this mother and doctors for this abortion, I do think it is time for Pelosi, Kerry, Kennedy, Guiliani, and the Governor of Utah to be excommunicated for leading people to perdition. Pelosi has been told by the Pope and the Governor of Utah was asked privately by the Bishop not to receive Communion and yet they continue. Enough! I read that a Catholic group has pertitioned the Pope for the excommunication of Pelosi. I would have signed it. I haven’t heard his response.

I agree completely…although I do not know that a petition will do any good. The Roman Catholic Church is not a democracy…of which I am truthfully glad.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

No we don’t have official Church position in the article you are citing. This was not an official notification from the Pontifical Academy for Life. This was a newspaper interview. The PAfL isn’t even the group at the Vatican that would be issuing an official determination. They are not a judicial group at all. An appeal would go to the Congregation for the Defense of the Faith and would not be promulgated by a newspaper article.

Archbishop Fisichella is entitled to his opinion but he has no authority to overrule the local Bishop in this type of matter.

Thank you, Corki!!!

 

[aicirt]

From Wikipedia, but it does correlate to everything else I have read on the topic from vaious sources.

According to the Catholic Church, excommunication, in the sense of a formal proceeding, is not a penalty, but rather a **formal proclamation of a pre-existing condition **in a more or less prominent member of the Catholic Church. When such a person commits acts that in themselves separate him from the communion of the faithful, particularly when by word, deed, or example he or she “spreads division and confusion among the Faithful”, it is necessary for the Church to clarify the situation by means of a formal announcement, which informs the laity that this is not a person to follow, and notifies the clergy that the person, by their own willful acts, has separated from the Church and is no longer to receive the sacraments, with the exception of Reconciliation. The decree may also indicate the mode of Reconciliation required for re-entry into the Church, specifying whether the local bishop may administer the process or it is reserved to the Pope. Excommunication is never a merely “vindictive penalty” (designed solely to punish), but is always used as a “medicinal penalty” intended to pressure the person into changing their behaviour or statements, repent and return to full communion.
…
In the Roman Catholic Church formal excommunication is normally resolved by a statement of repentance, profession of the Creed (if the offense involved heresy), or a renewal of obedience (if that was a relevant part of the offending act) by the excommunicant; the declaration of the reconciliation itself, by a priest or bishop empowered to do this; and then the reception of the sacrament of Reconciliation. In many cases, this whole process takes place within the privacy of the confessional and during the same act of confession
…
**excommunicated Catholics are still under obligation to attend Mass, **even though they are barred from receiving the Eucharist or even taking active part in the liturgy (reading, bringing the offerings, etc.).[2] Indeed, the excommunicant is encouraged to retain some relationship with the Church, as the goal is to encourage them to repent and return to active participation in its life
…
Only in cases where a person’s excommunicable offense is very public and likely to confuse people is a person’s excommunicated status even announced, and that usually by a simple statement from a church official.

Thanks for an excellent explanation. Why doesn’t the Church excommunicate Pelosi since her stand on abortion as well as that of other prominent Catholics is leading the laity to perdition? They’ve been warned repeatedly. My Lutheran pro-life neighbor asked three Catholics how they could possibly vote for Obama considering his stance. If the Church is telling the laity to stand against abortion, it needs to also.

 

[St_Francis]

Thanks for an excellent explanation. Why doesn’t the Church excommunicate Pelosi since her stand on abortion as well as that of other prominent Catholics is leading the laity to perdition? They’ve been warned repeatedly. My Lutheran pro-life neighbor asked three Catholics how they could possibly vote for Obama considering his stance. If the Church is telling the laity to stand against abortion, it needs to also.

Bishop Raymond Burke, now at the Vatican, said that the USCCB document Faithful Citizenship had contributed to confusion and so many Catholics voting for Obama…

The latest I have heard about excommunications is that the USCCB decided that since they would affect other dioceses (like if a politician traveled to another diocese), they should act in concert. (I wish I had kept the link to that article, but here’s a link to a commentary on the meetings)

Keep praying!

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Are you a medical doctor?

But what authority are you making this claim?

How does her being raped by her step father make the pregnancy any harder on her body?

I’m not asking you what you think, or are uncomfortable with. I’m asking you where you get your facts from? Or do you have any facts?

Thanks, Apryl.

 

[jay29]

Thanks for an excellent explanation. Why doesn’t the Church excommunicate Pelosi since her stand on abortion as well as that of other prominent Catholics is leading the laity to perdition? They’ve been warned repeatedly. My Lutheran pro-life neighbor asked three Catholics how they could possibly vote for Obama considering his stance. If the Church is telling the laity to stand against abortion, it needs to also.

Because many bishops are total weaklings and are spineless in upholding true Catholic Teachings. I’m tired of these liberal, push over bishops. Arrgh.