Break the Seal said Baton Rouge Court

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The original lawsuit was filed against Fr. Bayhi.

The state high court’s decision, rendered in May of this year, demands that a hearing be held in 19th Judicial District Court in Baton Rouge, where the suit originated, to determine whether or not a confession was made. It reverses an earlier decision by the Louisiana First Circuit Court of Appeals dismissing the original lawsuit filed against Bayhi and the diocese.

Read more: nola.com/crime/baton-rouge/index.ssf/2014/07/priest_confession_testimony_lo.html
It also allow HER testimony to be used - that is what the Supreme Court decided AND to determine if it was information in a confession OR he learned outside.
The diocese didn’t want HER testimony to be used, what was said in the confession, at all which is why it went to SP. It should be used.
 
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glendab:
Hello Traditionalist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aTraditionalist

You should change your “Catholic” status on the forum. You clearly have chosen to stand against the Church.

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I don’t know how you added to what I said, but I said no such thing about the Seal. I’ve said the opposite. I’m reporting you for falsification. Do NOT tamper with my words again.

Glenda
Hello Glenda. I quoted seaton2005 or whomever it is, and that post contained a quote from one of your posts. I did not tamper nor misrepresent what your post contained. As a matter of fact, your post is irrelevant to mine. It is and was clear who I was addressing and will be clear to any future readers as long as they bother to read the first part of the post at all. Report to your hearts content.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android
 
It also allow HER testimony to be used - that is what the Supreme Court decided AND to determine if it was information in a confession OR he learned outside.
The diocese didn’t want HER testimony to be used, what was said in the confession, at all which is why it went to SP. It should be used.
Provide the evidence.

I only see appeals by the Diocese.

Here is the official statement outlining some of the history of the case you might actually learn from.

Statement of the Diocese of Baton Rouge

July 7, 2014

Official Statement of the Diocese of Baton Rouge
With Respect To
Supreme Court of Louisiana, Docket No. 2013-C-2879
Court of Appeals – First Circuit, Docket No. 2013-CW-0316

By matter of policy, the Roman Catholic Diocese of Baton Rouge does not normally comment on pending legal cases, especially when the plaintiff files the case under seal. The Church respects the request for sealing of the record and will not make statements. However, in the instant case, even though the district court record is under seal, the opinion issued by the Court of Appeals for the First Circuit in Baton Rouge and the Writ opinion by the Supreme Court of Louisiana are not under seal.

Since those two opinions are public record and the media has contacted the Church for comment, we provide this statement of the position of the Catholic Church and Fr. Jeff Bayhi.

The issue as it relates to the “Church defendants” (Fr. Bayhi and the Diocese of Baton Rouge) attacks the seal of confession and the attempt by the plaintiffs to have the court compel testimony from the priest, Fr. Bayhi, as to whether or not there were confessions and, if so, what the contents of any such confessions were.

We contend that two conflicting statutes of the State of Louisiana are involved regarding mandatory reporting of knowledge concerning alleged sexual abuse or neglect of minors.

The case in question does not allege any such charge against any clergy, religious or paid staff member of the diocese. The Church has great compassion for those who have indicated an experience of such egregious misconduct.

The issue before the District Court, the First Circuit Court of Appeals and the Louisiana Supreme Court assaults the heart of a fundamental doctrine of the Catholic faith as relating to the absolute seal of sacred communications (Confession/Sacrament of Reconciliation).

The Court of Appeals for the First Circuit ruled that the seal of confession preempted the Civil Court from ordering the priest to testify as to whether or not there was a confession and, if so, what the contents of the confession revealed. The Court of Appeals for the First Circuit dismissed the case against both Fr. Bayhi and the Catholic Church of the Diocese of Baton Rouge.

A Writ of Certiorari was filed by the plaintiffs to the Supreme Court of Louisiana. The Supreme Court of Louisiana granted the Writ, reversed and vacated the First Circuit Court of Appeals judgment, in its entirety, reinstated the judgment of the trial court, and remanded for further proceedings in the District Court to hold a hearing concerning whether or not there was a “confession.” We contend that such a procedure is a clear violation of the Establishment Clause of the U. S. Constitution. The Supreme Court of Louisiana cannot order the District Court to do that which no civil court possibly can—determine what constitutes the Sacrament of Reconciliation in the Catholic Church. Indeed, both state and federal jurisprudence make clear that there is no jurisdiction to adjudicate claims that turn upon such purely religious questions.

A foundational doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church for thousands of years mandates that the seal of confession is absolute and inviolable. Pursuant to his oath to the Church, a priest is compelled never to break that seal. Neither is a priest allowed to admit that someone went to confession to him. If necessary, the priest would have to suffer a finding of contempt in a civil court and suffer imprisonment rather than violate his sacred duty and violate the seal of confession and his duty to the penitent.

This is not a gray area in the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. A priest/confessor who violates the seal of confession incurs an automatic excommunication reserved for forgiveness to the Apostolic See in Vatican City.

In this case, the priest acted appropriately and would not testify about the alleged confessions. Church law does not allow either the plaintiff (penitent) or anyone else to waive the seal of confession.

This matter cuts to the core of the Catholic faith, and for a civil court to inquire as to whether or not a factual situation establishes the Sacrament of Confession is a clear and unfettered violation of the Establishment Clause of the Constitution of the United States. This matter is of serious consequence to all religions, not just the Catholic faith. The statutes involved in this matter address “sacred communications” which are confidential and are exempt from mandatory reporting. In other words, Protestant ministers, Jewish Rabbis, clergy of the Muslim religion, etc. all counsel and receive sacred communication of a confidential nature which are covered by these statutes.

The position of the Diocese of Baton Rouge and Fr. Bayhi is that the Supreme Court of Louisiana has run afoul of the constitutional rights of both the Church and the priest, more particularly, has violated the Establishment Clause and the separation of Church and State under the first amendment. For a civil court to impinge upon the freedom of religion is a clear violation and the matter will be taken to the highest court in the land by the Church in order to protect its free exercise of religion.
 
It also allow HER testimony to be used - that is what the Supreme Court decided AND to determine if it was information in a confession OR he learned outside.
The diocese didn’t want HER testimony to be used, what was said in the confession, at all which is why it went to SP. It should be used.
The girl’s parents sued Father Bayhi and the Diocese of Baton Rouge for failing to report the abuse. The parents won at the district court level about compelling the priest to testify, but lost in Louisiana’s First Circuit Court of Appeals, before the state’s highest court reversed and vacated the appellate court’s decision.

catholicsun.org/2014/07/09/court-may-compel-priest-to-break-confessional-seal-in-abuse-case/
 
"Before the case went to trial, the diocese sought to prevent the parents of the teenager from using any evidence or description from the girl’s confessions. A district judge denied the motion, saying the testimony of the teenager was relevant and she was able to waive her own secrecy privilege.

But an appeals court reversed that decision and dismissed the claims against Bayhi and the church, saying the priest could not be required to report information confided to him in confession.

The state Supreme Court disagreed in a ruling issued in April and reaffirmed May 23, saying if the girl waived her right to keep her confessions confidential, the priest “cannot then raise it to protect himself.” The ruling allows evidence from the confession to be submitted — but it doesn’t necessarily require Bayhi to testify in the case."

I read the statement from the Diocese. Maybe they can comment on why they didn’t want her testimony about what was said in the confession in the first place because WE penitent CAN speak of it.

This is the source I used but other lawyers have been commenting on it - Fr Z’s etc is where I started looking for the timeline and why the Diocese objected in the first place unless they just want it over.

newstimes.com/news/crime/article/Louisiana-ruling-on-confession-rankles-Catholics-5613272.php
 
"Before the case went to trial, the diocese sought to prevent the parents of the teenager from using any evidence or description from the girl’s confessions. A district judge denied the motion, saying the testimony of the teenager was relevant and she was able to waive her own secrecy privilege.

But an appeals court reversed that decision and dismissed the claims against Bayhi and the church, saying the priest could not be required to report information confided to him in confession.

The state Supreme Court disagreed in a ruling issued in April and reaffirmed May 23, saying if the girl waived her right to keep her confessions confidential, the priest “cannot then raise it to protect himself.” The ruling allows evidence from the confession to be submitted — but it doesn’t necessarily require Bayhi to testify in the case."

I read the statement from the Diocese. Maybe they can comment on why they didn’t want her testimony about what was said in the confession in the first place because WE penitent CAN speak of it.

This is the source I used but other lawyers have been commenting on it - Fr Z’s etc is where I started looking for the timeline and why the Diocese objected in the first place unless they just want it over.

newstimes.com/news/crime/article/Louisiana-ruling-on-confession-rankles-Catholics-5613272.php
A motion before a trial is just that, a motion. The case has apparently been filed already.

The mere fact that it is a motion contradicts your assertion that the Diocese filed a suit.

Actual court rulings with supporting docs.
wbrz.com/files/Louisiana%20Appeal%20Court%20Decision.pdf

wbrz.com/files/Louisiana%20State%20Supreme%20Court%20Decision.pdf
 
A motion before a trial is just that, a motion. The case has apparently been filed already.

The mere fact that it is a motion contradicts your assertion that the Diocese filed a suit.
“The diocese first filed a motion to prevent her testimony about what was said in the confession. Lower court said yes, Supreme Court reversed it and said SHE could decide if she wanted to say/use/reveal what was said in the confession.”
^ That’s what I said - motion.
 
“The diocese first filed a motion to prevent her testimony about what was said in the confession. Lower court said yes, Supreme Court reversed it and said SHE could decide if she wanted to say/use/reveal what was said in the confession.”
^ That’s what I said - motion.
You also said: "The whole reason it went to the Supreme Court was because the Diocese filed a motion…

So it was not to prevent her testimony but to prevent the court from forcing the Priest to break the seal

"The issue before the District Court, the First Circuit Court of Appeals and the Louisiana Supreme Court assaults the heart of a fundamental doctrine of the Catholic faith as relating to the absolute seal of sacred communications (Confession/Sacrament of Reconciliation).

The Court of Appeals for the First Circuit ruled that the seal of confession preempted the Civil Court from ordering the priest to testify as to whether or not there was a confession and, if so, what the contents of the confession revealed. The Court of Appeals for the First Circuit dismissed the case against both Fr. Bayhi and the Catholic Church of the Diocese of Baton Rouge."
 
You also said: "The whole reason it went to the Supreme Court was because the Diocese filed a motion…

So it was not to prevent her testimony but to prevent the court from forcing the Priest to break the seal

"The issue before the District Court, the First Circuit Court of Appeals and the Louisiana Supreme Court assaults the heart of a fundamental doctrine of the Catholic faith as relating to the absolute seal of sacred communications (Confession/Sacrament of Reconciliation).

The Court of Appeals for the First Circuit ruled that the seal of confession preempted the Civil Court from ordering the priest to testify as to whether or not there was a confession and, if so, what the contents of the confession revealed. The Court of Appeals for the First Circuit dismissed the case against both Fr. Bayhi and the Catholic Church of the Diocese of Baton Rouge."
I’m confused. THAT IS WHY IT WENT TO THE SUPREME COURT BECAUSE THE DIOCESE FILED A MOTION. I am speaking of this one motion, filed by the Diocese, and how it has progressed. After all of this, it may not even come to him testifying to anything.

The motion by the diocese was to prevent her testimony about the confession and what was said…
 
I’m confused. THAT IS WHY IT WENT TO THE SUPREME COURT BECAUSE THE DIOCESE FILED A MOTION. I am speaking of this one motion, filed by the Diocese, and how it has progressed. After all of this, it may not even come to him testifying to anything.

The motion by the diocese was to prevent her testimony about the confession and what was said…
but the motion as written in the court papers is to prevent the priest from breaking his seal.

It is written right there.
 
This whole case is about a family who wants to sue the Catholic Church.

I guess there is nothing worse than being abused by someone who is now a dead criminal. But if one can turn around and accuse the Catholic Church and persuade the Diocese to settle out of court to protect the priest from being unjustly incarcerated, then one can make lemonade out of lemons.

It all boils down to that.
 
This whole case is about a family who wants to sue the Catholic Church.

I guess there is nothing worse than being abused by someone who is now a dead criminal. But if one can turn around and accuse the Catholic Church and persuade the Diocese to settle out of court to protect the priest from being unjustly incarcerated, then one can make lemonade out of lemons.

It all boils down to that.
They can’t compel him to break the law.

The Diocese filed the motion to prevent her testimony of what was said in the confession because they thought it would cause him to break the seal. SP said nope BUT it is mixed and they would have to determine what was said where and SHE could speak of her confession.
 
They can’t compel him to break the law.

.
They can’t compel him to break the seal for sure.

This girl and her family, if abused, have decided to go against Christ himself.

Something here smells really bad.
 
They can’t compel him to break the seal for sure.

This girl and her family, if abused, have decided to go against Christ himself.

Something here smells really bad.
That is sad that you think they are going against Christ. If anything, they are mistaken in that they believe that only sins are kept under the seal in a confession. That should be cleared up.

If and when the trial proceeds, it will be under a seal, different, so we won’t really know. Time to pray for all.
 
They can’t compel him to break the law.

The Diocese filed the motion to prevent her testimony of what was said in the confession because they thought it would cause him to break the seal. SP said nope BUT it is mixed and they would have to determine what was said where and SHE could speak of her confession.
That doesn’t make sense. Can you supply a link regarding the motion filed by the diocese that you refer to? The court was saying that by her breaking the seal of her confession, the priest had no obligation to keep the seal of her confession. The Church says not so. It is the church that determines the seal of confession not the court.
 
That is sad that you think they are going against Christ. If anything, they are mistaken in that they believe that only sins are kept under the seal in a confession. That should be cleared up.

If and when the trial proceeds, it will be under a seal, different, so we won’t really know. Time to pray for all.
Sad that some think confession is a mere superficial event that Christ is not present and forgiving our sins via the priest.

Sad that some don’t know that the seal of confession entails not even mentioning that a confession took place.

Sad that some believe the seal of confession can be broken so easily. They should know that we are talking about eternal salvation of souls.

We are also talking about a priest who had nothing to do with the crime itself and now is being told to break the seal of confession. Pray for him.
 
That doesn’t make sense. Can you supply a link regarding the motion filed by the diocese that you refer to? The court was saying that by her breaking the seal of her confession, the priest had no obligation to keep the seal of her confession. The Church says no so. It is the church that determines the seal of confession not the court.
It is in the decision by the Supreme Court. Although the church does say yes/no about the sacramental confession, seal and when it is/isn’t in place, the Court will determine if this is the case and the civil law needs to be respected. They also need to determine if he knew of anything outside of the confession.
 
The family seems to think that because she said something that wasn’t a sin, and got counseling in the confessional, that it isn’t under the seal. It is. That can be cleared up with hypothetical questions while respecting the seal and the law.
 
For those who say they are Catholic on this thread but don’t know about confession, here is a good paragraph from a CA article

"The means by which God forgives sins after baptism is confession: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).

This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacity as the Son of man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Matt. 9:6). Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power “glorified God, who had given such authority to men” [Our ordained Priests] (Matt. 9:8; note the plural “men”). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:21–23). "

Please pray for Fr. Bayhi
 
The family seems to think that because she said something that wasn’t a sin, and got counseling in the confessional, that it isn’t under the seal. It is. That can be cleared up with hypothetical questions while respecting the seal and the law.
The family doesn’t know the faith they claim to believe in then…

And it is interesting that the case is not just about the confession but whether or not the Priest had a duty to report allegations. If they are Catholic they would know that Priests can’t say anything that was told on confession.

So I don’t believe for a second that the family misunderstands what they are doing here.

Here is… as written

SUPREME COURT OF LOUISIANA

NO. 2013-C-2879

[PARENTS OF MINOR CHILD]

VERSUS

GEORGE J. CHARLET, JR., DECEASED, CHARLET FUNERAL HOME,
INC., [THE PRIEST], AND THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE
DIOCESE OF BATON ROUGE

ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE COURT OF APPEAL, FIRST
CIRCUIT, PARISH OF EAST BATON ROUGE

PER CURIAM
This writ presents the issue of whether a party is precluded from offering
any evidence of her confession and whether a priest has a duty to report allegations
of sexual abuse perpetrated on a minor parishioner. For the following reasons, we
grant the plaintiffs’ writ, reversing and vacating the court of appeal’s judgment and
reinstating the trial court’s judgment.
 
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