Breaking down Methodism...

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Eutychus123 said:
Outside the US, some Methodist churches use wine at communion. The use of grape jucie in the US harkens back to the temperence movement. There was once an influential Methodist by the name of Welch. Perhaps you have heard of his company?
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Welch wasn’t that influential in Methodism - just an enterprising dentist in the middle of the Prohibition movement. 😃 He was actually a member of the Wesleyan Methodist Connexion, a small Calvinistic breakaway of the (then) Methodist Episcopal Church.

Presently, you CAN use wine for Eucharist in a United Methodist Church, but most do not. The historical timeline is thus:
  • The 1864 General Conference on temperance “recommends that in all cases the pure juice of the grape be used in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper.”
  • The 1872 General Conference reaffirms its recommendation of 1864.
  • The 1876 permissive rubric based on 1864 recommendation is added at the head of Ritual for Holy Communion.
  • In 1880, the General Conference added a semi-mandatory rubric “let none but the pure juice of the grape be used in administering the Lord’s Supper, whenever practicable.”
  • In 1916, the General Conference adopted a mandatory rubric (i.e., “whenever practicable” was deleted).
  • The 1964 Book of Worship rubric is emphatic: “The pure, unfermented juice of the grape shall be used.”
  • Note that the current ritual texts and rubrics in our Hymnal (1989) and Book of Worship (1992) do not explicitly define what form of the fruit of the grape shall be used. The United Methodist Book of Worship does recognize…
  • the historic and ecumenical practice has been the use of wine
  • the use of the unfermented grape juice by The United Methodist Church and its predecessors is an expression of pastoral concern for recovering alcoholics, enables the participation of children and youth, and supports the church’s witness of abstinence. (See the 1964 Book of Worship, page 28.)
 
O.S.Luke said:
Welch wasn’t that influential in Methodism - just an enterprising dentist in the middle of the Prohibition movement. 😃 He was actually a member of the Wesleyan Methodist Connexion, a small Calvinistic breakaway of the (then) Methodist Episcopal Church.

Presently, you CAN use wine for Eucharist in a United Methodist Church, but most do not. The historical timeline is thus:
  • The 1864 General Conference on temperance “recommends that in all cases the pure juice of the grape be used in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper.”
  • The 1872 General Conference reaffirms its recommendation of 1864.
  • The 1876 permissive rubric based on 1864 recommendation is added at the head of Ritual for Holy Communion.
  • In 1880, the General Conference added a semi-mandatory rubric “let none but the pure juice of the grape be used in administering the Lord’s Supper, whenever practicable.”
  • In 1916, the General Conference adopted a mandatory rubric (i.e., “whenever practicable” was deleted).
  • The 1964 Book of Worship rubric is emphatic: “The pure, unfermented juice of the grape shall be used.”
  • Note that the current ritual texts and rubrics in our Hymnal (1989) and Book of Worship (1992) do not explicitly define what form of the fruit of the grape shall be used. The United Methodist Book of Worship does recognize…
  • the historic and ecumenical practice has been the use of wine
  • the use of the unfermented grape juice by The United Methodist Church and its predecessors is an expression of pastoral concern for recovering alcoholics, enables the participation of children and youth, and supports the church’s witness of abstinence. (See the 1964 Book of Worship, page 28.)
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Thank you for the additional information on Welch and the details from the Book of Worship. The text you quoted is still used in my 1992 edition.

Is my information about Methodist practice outside of the US correct?

Does O.S. Luke stand for Order of St Luke?
 
Eutychus123 said:
Outside the US, some Methodist churches use wine at communion. The use of grape jucie in the US harkens back to the temperence movement. There was once an influential Methodist by the name of Welch. Perhaps you have heard of his company?
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I’ve never heard of him at all. But in my Methodist church we use to use home made bread and grape juice.
 
spockrates said:
Aaaaa Heeem!

Look at me.

Notice anything different?

🙂
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Spockrates…still love that screen name, dude. A little bit of the Socratic Method of asking questions coupled with a whole lotta “Live long and prosper” and “may your journey be free of incident!” A little Athenian philosophy and a touch of Vulcan emotion-control!
 
While I’m no fan of Methodism, O.S., your post is outstanding and your points well-defended. Nicely-done. You represent your faith well.
O.S.Luke said:
That would be an incorrect statement. Methodists and Lutherans tend to embrace the Eastern understanding of Real Presence as a mystery that cannot be explained, and stay away from the metaphysical language that transunbstantiation is so dependent upon. “This Holy Mystery” is the official teaching on the Eucharist of the United Methodist Church, as “By Water and the Spirit” is the official teaching on baptism. THM states:

Partially incorrect. Wesley’s “criteria” for those to come to the Table were the same as the Anglican Church’s - only the repentant baptized. The exact quote of Wesley regarding regular communion was, “[People] should lose no opportunity to receive the sacrament.” Wesley himself celebrated/participated in the Eucharist more than once a week.

John Wesley was an Anglican priest who died an Anglican priest in good standing (there was no Episcopal Church - Wesley left America in 1737). His brother Charles also died an Anglican priest in good standing. Both are recognized in the sanctoral cycle and calendar of the Anglican Church.

You have evidently never read John Wesley’s sermons on sanctification, piety, and salvation - because that would be the cart before the horse! Wesley firmly embraced and espoused sanctification as the disposition of the mind and heart from which all good works came.

You may be a very good Catholic, Peary, but you are very misinformed about Methodism.
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
Spockrates…still love that screen name, dude. A little bit of the Socratic Method of asking questions coupled with a whole lotta “Live long and prosper” and “may your journey be free of incident!” A little Athenian philosophy and a touch of Vulcan emotion-control!
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Yes, well, I prefer to think of myself as a conflict between stoic Spock and playful Soc!

😃
 
spockrates said:
Yes, well, I prefer to think of myself as a conflict between stoic Spock and playful Soc!

😃
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Well, after you get to know me, I’m more of a Doctor McCoy type LOL…I have Deforest Kelly’s autograph. What a great guy! I have McCoy’s personality lol
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
Well, after you get to know me, I’m more of a Doctor McCoy type LOL…I have Deforest Kelly’s autograph. What a great guy! I have McCoy’s personality lol
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Sounds like we’ll get along just fine–like Spock and McCoy!
😉

McCoy: Spock, remind me to tell you that I’m sick and tired of your logic.
Spock: That is a most illogical attitude.
 
Usbek_de_Perse said:
Methodists are responsible for bringing the Gospel to the poor and disenfranchised of England and Wales. That is hardly something to want to destroy.
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I think the poor and disenfranchised would be better off reading Nietzsche, Locke, Kant, Hume, and perhaps some Adam Smith 🙂

Did the gospel make them any less poor or disenfranchised?
 
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