BREAKING: Pope Francis gives local bishops more responsibility for Mass translations

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The changes I was speaking of were prior to the Council At Trent, when the Mass format was sought to be codified across the universal Church. Prior to the Tridentine Latin Mass, there were various formats used and the TLM was developed from the main format used by Rome, with some modifications.

We’re only speaking about the last 500 years of the 2000 year old Church.

The Church in the East used Greek, and in fact the Church in the East greatly opposed the translation of Scripture into Latin. They felt that only Greek should be used. However being the Church grew in the West and the largest population of Catholics used Latin as the common language, Latin took route as the Church’s official language.

Also, you say Latin is the instituted language, but the Kyrie is Greek, not Latin.

It makes little difference to God which language is used in the Mass, but God cares more about where the hearts of the people celebrating the Mass are.

Jim
 
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Yes, it does actually matter what language it’s in. There are far less liturgical abuses when spoken in Latin and there can be no translation mistakes if it is in one language. Notice how there are multiple forms of the Bible, all with slightly different word translations? Many of these slight word translations can completely offset the meaning of a sentence. Since language evolves, the mass will have to continue to evolve and continue to cause confusion if we don’t use Latin. This is just how language works.
 
So you think the Bible should only be translated into Latin?

Ironically, during St Teresa of Avila’s time in the 1500’s, translations of the Bible other than in Classical Latin were allowed.

This meant, the saint herself could not read the Bible.

Also, if you think there were no abuses before Vatican II in the TLM, think again.

Priests left out parts to finish fast and many said the words so fast you couldn’t keep up following the missal. Of course often you couldn’t hear them well either as they mumbled the prayers. Church’s were not equipped with the sound systems we have today.

Jim
 
False.

Have you been to an Anglican service before? These phrases live in that tradition, as well as within Presbyterianism and Methodism. The former translation was written in haste, with no intentions of becoming a permanent fix. The old translation conjures images of Fr Joe in flour-sack, off-white chasuble and Sister Butterfly featuring the guitar, but the new translation with its poetry and imagery is a true translation. This is one of the only times you’ll ever hear me celebrate “out with the old, and in with the new.”
 
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I think that the mass doesn’t need to be translated. I’m using the Bible as an example of how translation can reduce the meaning of a phrase. I didn’t say there weren’t abuses before Vatican II, I’m saying there were far less liturgical abuses because mass was said in a language where it couldn’t really happen as easily.

I’ll give you some quotes proving my point that Latin is a tradition of the Church and the language of the Church:
“The language proper to the Roman Church is Latin. Hence it is forbidden to sing anything whatever in the vernacular in solemn liturgical functions — much more to sing in the vernacular the variable or common parts of the Mass and Office.” -Pope Saint Pius X, Tra le Sollecitudini, November 22, 1903

“For the Church, precisely because it embraces all nations and is destined to endure until the end of time… of its very nature requires a language which is universal, immutable, and non-vernacular.” -Pope Pius XI, Officiorum Omnium, 1922

“The day the Church abandons her universal tongue [Latin] is the day before she returns to the catacombs. Pope Pius XII”

In his 1962 apostolic constitution Veterum Sapientia, Pope St. John XXIII observed that:
“The Catholic Church has a dignity far surpassing that of every merely human society, for it was founded by Christ the Lord. It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should be noble, majestic, and non-vernacular.”

Saint Augustine also says of the mass, “If there are some present who do not understand what is being said or sung, they know at least that all is said and sung to the glory of God, and that is sufficient for them to join in it devoutly.”

The mass is not a demonstration or instruction for the people, and therefore does not need to be fully understood. The celebration of mass consists more in action than in words. If one understands the actions, that is enough. The action of the mass, and the mystery of it, is reinforced by the use of Latin
 
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I don’t understand why the US doesn’t use the Missal used in Puerto Rico, since that is US soil?
 
Of course, Anglicanism came out of Catholicism.

What you see there came from Catholicism…

Presbyterianism ? You need to read Scott Hahn’s conversion account. He wrote how when he was in the Presbyterian Hierarchy,he was given the task pf putting together a liturgy. To do so, he visited
Catholic Masses and even took a missal to create a liturgy service for them, Of course observing the Mass, which was the Novus Ordo in English, was what help him to convert to Catholicism.

Jim

Jim
 
The context you’re pulling those quotes from are important to understand exactly what they were saying.

Pope John XIII was the one who called Vatican II and the one who allowed the use of the vernacular.

The Church before Vatican II was rigid in it’s treatment of non-Catholics

Even going into a Protestant Church was considered a sin, never mind speaking with Protestants about religion.

Some how you think the Church today is in heresy and this would include Pope Francis.

Please correct me if I’m wrong on this.

Jim
 
With Bishop Gregory, most US Bishops, and (apparently) the current Pope. Its always interesting to see people elevate opinion to a matter of doctrinal importance. For pete’s sake we’re talking about a translation here. There’s plenty of room to disagree and find compromises.
 
Interestingly, I just finished reading that one! Perhaps the American Presbyterian scene is different to ours? More fragmented, I imagine. They use the Book of Common Order here, with lots of thees and thous somewhat like Common Prayer.

But you see, it was common practise and belief amongst the laity in anti-Protestant sentiment to believe that entering a non-Catholic church was a sin however it never was particularly enshrined in any apologetic or catechetical way. My great-grandparents had two weddings, in fact, and that was in the late 1930’s - my great grandfather was an Anglican and a member of a parish deeply rooted in the Oxford Tradition of High Church, Anglo-Catholicism, yet they married at my great grandmothers parish - Roman Catholic, and the next day with the blessing of her parish priest, went to the Anglican Church with her new husband and the Anglican priest prayed for and blessed their marriage.

But then my great grandfather converted to Catholicism, because he became mystified by the tradition and deep reverence in the true Mass, as well as the authority of the Pope which his own sect had fallen away from.

But you say I think the Church today is in heresy? Absolutely, vehemently, not. I think we are suffering the cross of the age - heterodoxy. The old translation did not accurately represent the words of the Latin, and it can not ever truly do so - which is why I always prefer the Latin to the vernacular, since it is ‘set apart’ for divine purposes. But now we have a translation of the sacred liturgy where Our Lord himself becomes our food, and under the veil of bread and wine we receive Him. At the words of consecration: transubstantiation. As an act of praise a prayer, worship, and sacrifice, I would only want the best of our human expression - an expression our Creator deigned us to have, to be used in addressing her. He loves us, and we ought to love him and use the gifts of His grace to offer up the best of our might.

When we utilize a liturgy devoid of much beauty, eloquence, and clear expression of our theological belief, it confuses the laity and we can see this is obvious through Church attendance these days. We pray what we believe, which is why we use “consubstantial” and “only say the word and my soul shall be healed” because the reality of the reception of the Eucharist is such a greatly humbling act, and such a mysterious expression of God’s love; that he might allow us to participate in Him, and become one in Him. The Church, as the mystical body of Christ, must at all times show due reverence to Christ, the High Priest.

Our Church can never fall into heresy: its priests, bishops, laity, popes, and religious can. Lately we have a crisis in this regard, as we reach out to Protestants we must be clear not to become like them, but to show how they ought to fully be blessed by the fulness of true in the love of the Saviour of mankind, the eternal God.

Interestingly, the translation became more poetic and accurate but the structure did not change. This is important for a Church with over a 2000 year history, because the accuracy in language for the highest form of prayer on Earth must be handled with great care, and if we do, we will be showered with grace and blessings. The more carefully and reverently we treat the Mass, more numerously will souls return with open hearts. And to conclude, I don’t disagree with the vernacular Mass - I go every weekend, but I also attend the Latin Mass and recognise that Latin ought to have a sort of primacy as the documents of VII indicated.
 
It is truly so, so tedious to hear the canard of how “rigid” we were before Vatican II and how we’re not now.

Ask a liberal cleric to permit a Latin Mass. Then you’ll know the meaning of “rigid.”
 
Okay, let’s have the Greek then. Kyrie Eleison and Sabaoth are very powerful even if they’re not universally understood.
 
It was rigid.

Ask the mother’s who were told they committed mortal sin for serving meat on Friday, forgetting it was Friday before they prepared the meal. Rather than throw it out, they served it.

According to Church teaching, dying in the state of mortal sin would result in being sent directly to hell.

Ask the Catholics who married a non-Catholic and their marriage had to be celebrated in the rear of the Church, without a Mass.

Jim
 
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Church teaching STILL says that dying in the state of mortal sin = hell. That was NOT changed at Vatican II.

And I suspect you are well aware of that fact.
 
Veterum Sapientia written by John XXIII a few months before he convened Vat II effectively banned the vernacular in religious matters. He never signed any Vat II documents allowing the vernacular. That was Paul VI all the way.
 
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But the condition for what makes a sin mortal, is not infallible.

If you believe that mother;'s who served meat on Friday are now in hell for committing that sin, you really have a problem with understanding God’s mercy.

God did not send Jesus to change His mind about man, but to change man’s mind about God.

Jim
 
The example you offered about forgetfulness did not qualify as mortal sin before Vatican II…and again, you know that. Don’t try to play this game of how mean we were before Vatican II, and how merciful we are now. It’s completely bogus and rooted in utter falsehood.
 
Have you been to an Anglican service before? These phrases live in that tradition, as well as within Presbyterianism and Methodism. The former translation was written in haste, with no intentions of becoming a permanent fix. The old translation conjures images of Fr Joe in flour-sack, off-white chasuble and Sister Butterfly featuring the guitar, but the new translation with its poetry and imagery is a true translation. This is one of the only times you’ll ever hear me celebrate “out with the old, and in with the new.”
I’m not too sure about that. One can use the argument that the current Our Father, supposedly King Henry’s translation, was written in haste as well. Yet, it was never changed by the ICEL.
 
Pope John XXIII, was addressing the official language of the Church used in official communication.

He was not prohibiting Mass in the vernacular per se, which Vatican II clearly allowed and which the Church allows today.

Also, today Latin is rarely used by the Pope’s in communicating as translating into various languages is far easier than it was in 1962.

This is not heresy as you seem to think and the Church has not taken a step backwards by using the vernacular. If anything, she’s reaching more people of the world than in the past.

Jim
 
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