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ioannes_pius
Guest
Thank you Pope Francis, very cool 
Breitbart...Pope Francis: Pandemic Has Taught ‘the Greatness of Science, but also Its Limits’
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farronwolf
New member
Who are you listening to for recommendations regarding dealing with covid.
Do you not think Fauci and birx have given advice based on best available data.
Do you not think Fauci and birx have given advice based on best available data.
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jack63
Guest
I think it is a public discussion that requires discernment from many experts. For example, I just love the discussions between Dr. Fauci and Dr. Rand Paul. These are great. I believe both men are sincere, the truth is somewhere between and around what these two men are saying. We are a democracy after all, we discuss, we discern, and we struggle with issues.
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farronwolf
New member
Rand Paul’s expertise is in what again.
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jack63
Guest
It’s worth reading this recent article in the WSJ, about the major potential problems of sending students home from Universities during an outbreak. There is another legitimate side to this that mainstream experts are beginning to embrace.
This is exactly what the US did in March…
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HerCrazierHalf
Guest
I totally get it. The other balance is whether or not the public and political will exist to do what’s required? Based on the fact that we have seem many incidents of workers harassed or assaulted for merely enforcing a mask requirement, I don’t think it’d be practical to keep the college students.
There’s steps that’d probably work if we get >90% compliance but too many would dissent. Then there’s less effective steps that might get better acceptance but are less effective. Seems that a sense of “you can’t tell me what to do” is fairly strong among enough ppl that it hinders potentially effective measures.
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jack63
Guest
Ok…thanks…this is a valid point. Why so little faith in college students? Is this lack of faith justified? Is it a deeper problem…for example does a major university with just enough housing for their incoming freshman class have any chance of managing all students…it that case I’d say it is “not going to happen”. I’ll have to think about this further.
Theoretically, with the what we know of Covid-19…e.g. its Lethality…you should be able to bring students back to campus safely and with minimal Covid spread. Are the Universities up to it? Are the students up to it?
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HerCrazierHalf
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Death isn’t the only issue. Many survivors have lifelong injuries.
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jack63
Guest
No of course death isn’t the only issue. Yes…my personal experiences is that some of these symptoms (my darn cough) lasted months. I was exposed multiple times by people who tested positive, and I likely had a mild case.
If I could see long-term studies that show severe problems…not just a one off cases…I’d be far more convinced. We’re not in the long-term yet. We’re assuming the worst case scenario, and throwing ourselves into an economic depression. I’m not particularly resentful of this. I’m just, for the most part, very confused. Honestly, for what I do with my life, the shutdowns and subsequent slow downs have been a godsend.
I could argue that I’ve experienced the symptoms of some of the worst flus I’ve had for months too. For every anecdotal story of long-term Covid problems, I could post other anecdotal stories of people recovering relatively quickly. Neither of these things are particularly helpful or meaningful.
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jack63
Guest
There really has been a clarification on the response to Covid and this is coming directly from the Pope. It’s official! Yesterday Cardinal Sarah put out a letter urging people to go back to mass with precautions. This letter was completely approved by Pope Francis.
From the attached Crux article…
From the attached Crux article…
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Joegrane
Guest
The study of and use of science is done by imperfect and sinful humans.
COVID heros such as Dr Zelenko of NY use science in Godly ways and greatly reduced the number of patients going to the hospital. He explicitly gives God credit for his success. This discussion has more on Dr Z.
Others created fake studies or studies designed to fail that caused confusion.
Dr Chris Martenson explains the scandal of the Lancet’s study of hydroxychloroquine (HCQ). It claimed that many people were being killed by HCQ but the data was fake. After 150 scientists cosigned a letter complaining about a list of problems, the Lancet retracted the paper.
Martenson also contrasts a study of Dr Zelenko’s protocol at NYU with a study by the US NIH that was seemingly designed to fail. Those treated with zinc along with HCQ and AZT in the NYU study suffered half the deaths as the control group.
Dr Z. says his protocol prevents COVID in almost everyone who is using it. He is so confident that he only wears a mask when his patients want him to.
A professor in France who has served on vaccine related committees for the French government and the WHO says readily available treatments are so effective that we don’t have much need for a vaccine, especially one that is so poorly tested and may only work 50% of the time.
Professor Thomas Borody in Australia thinks a combination of Ivermectin, zinc and antibiotic is close to a cure if started in the early days of symptoms. He thinks COVID is easier to treat than the flu.
Many studies have reported a link between low vitamin D and worse outcomes with COVID. For example Martenson explains a study at the U of Chicago where vitamin D deficient participants were 77% more likely to test positive.
Another study reported half the deaths in those who were not vitamin D deficient.
Check out this impressive graph from a vitamin D study in SE Asia as presented by Dr Joseph Mercola.
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It is interesting that so many of the COVID heroes speak about Judeo-Christian values and/or have Christian names.
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Joegrane
Guest
Recently Martenson shared a quote by Warren Buffet"
“In looking for people to hire look for three qualities: integrity, intelligence and energy. If they don’t have the first, the second two will kill you.”
Sadly I fear so many of the people who have been leading the COVID related “science” lack integrity and that has been killing us.
[ Dr. Fauci’s] NIH Owns Half of Moderna Vaccine. Is Fauci’s influence a conflict of interest?
NIH whistleblower Dr Judy Mikovits, certainly claims Fauci and others at the NIH are corrupt.
The CDC is probably more corrupt than the NIH. It is the fox guarding the hen house.
Martenson explains that there has been data going back 10 years suggesting an important role for zinc in combating replication of coronaviruses like SARS2, yet almost no one talks about it. They’ve known for many years that HCQ moves zinc into the cells so zinc can inhibit virus replication.
How is it that many poor countries that aggressively used HCQ had far lower death rates than “First World” countries that did not use it.
Notice that Costa Rica that has done so much better than the US and most of W. Europe here
A few years ago there was a big 10,000 person meta-analysis study of vitamin D and respiratory illnesses. It reported benefits when correcting vitamin D deficiency.
The science available in the early months of the pandemic was adequate to keep this virus from being terribly deadly. We just did not have adequate moral values.
Sadly Christian leaders have missed this great opportunity to shine a light on the effects of the loss of Christian values!
“In looking for people to hire look for three qualities: integrity, intelligence and energy. If they don’t have the first, the second two will kill you.”
Sadly I fear so many of the people who have been leading the COVID related “science” lack integrity and that has been killing us.
[ Dr. Fauci’s] NIH Owns Half of Moderna Vaccine. Is Fauci’s influence a conflict of interest?
NIH whistleblower Dr Judy Mikovits, certainly claims Fauci and others at the NIH are corrupt.
The CDC is probably more corrupt than the NIH. It is the fox guarding the hen house.
Martenson explains that there has been data going back 10 years suggesting an important role for zinc in combating replication of coronaviruses like SARS2, yet almost no one talks about it. They’ve known for many years that HCQ moves zinc into the cells so zinc can inhibit virus replication.
How is it that many poor countries that aggressively used HCQ had far lower death rates than “First World” countries that did not use it.
Notice that Costa Rica that has done so much better than the US and most of W. Europe here
A few years ago there was a big 10,000 person meta-analysis study of vitamin D and respiratory illnesses. It reported benefits when correcting vitamin D deficiency.
The science available in the early months of the pandemic was adequate to keep this virus from being terribly deadly. We just did not have adequate moral values.
Sadly Christian leaders have missed this great opportunity to shine a light on the effects of the loss of Christian values!
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jack63
Guest
Thanks for posting @Joegrane. There is definitely something to what you are saying. Christian values of simply finding the truth aren’t being used as most of the scientific community researches Covid. Perhaps the truth is getting stopped by the major news outlets too. I’m not sure. Something is very wrong. When I have some more time, I’ll keep posting on this thread.
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phil3
Guest
Science will ultimately provide the solution to COVID-19. As we get more knowledge about the virus, there will be better treatment and sooner or later a vaccine.
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godisgood77
Guest
I think we need an adult in the White House who will put the country’s interest in front of its own. Down playing the threat was a mistake… The US has one of the worst responses in the world to the coronavirus and it is largely do to the president’s poor leadership, but we should not expect better from him at this point, should we? Maybe a rally with thousands of people not wearing masks or keeping their distance will help?
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jack63
Guest
No doubt! Those comments about McCain… “I like people who weren’t captured”
… a bigger dagger in my side…Perhaps the moderates and saner liberals should co-opt the far right’s views on the lock downs and Covid…and do it quickly. There is a great deal of truth to views that the lock downs weren’t necessary and and Covid has been exaggerated…Covid is a threat…but throwing the economy into a depression makes no sense to me.
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TMC
Guest
This article is very disingenuous. It seems to suggest that Francis is rejecting science and that Francis would agree with criticisms of things like masks. That is not at all what the Pope was saying, and the Pope obviously have been supportive of the scientific approach to the virus, including masks and shut downs where appropriate.
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godisgood77
Guest
I don’t think that is what happened… lock down for while, don’t provoke the population to ignore guidelines, wear a mask, keep your distance, limit travel to essential… hunker down as a country - like many countries in the world did. Weather storm together… stimulus money to aid those in need to bridge the gap… all common sense.
Had we done those things…and had leadership at the national level, we wouldn’t have one of the worst responses on the planet.
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jack63
Guest
There is also some truth to this, but the US would have needed to lock down and take other major precautions likely a couple of months earlier. Basically, it was too late in March. The US didn’t have the wherewithal to do this. Would Hillary? I dunno…
I was writing another response on this thread comparing Covid fatality rates in Michigan and Sweden. This data is worth looking at and is easily found via Google. This data changed my views. I mean I’m a moderate who sometimes prefers the company of progressives and atheists. I have no reason to support a Trump position. Below is the fatality rate in Sweden and Michigan due to Covid. Please keep in mind that both Michigan and Sweden have about the same population. Sweden is bigger than Michigan in terms of area by about 80%. Michigan has had some of the strictest and most severe lock downs in the US and Sweden has done very little to Combat Covid.
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Observations…
- More people died in Michigan vs Sweden.
- The graphs are very similar…Michigan data is a bit more choppy…but the 5-7 average basically peaks at around the same level and same time for both places in late April.
- Death rate drops off to a minimum level quicker in Michigan of about 5-15 deaths per day by late June and stays there, but Sweden slowly drops to nearly 0-2 deaths by mid August and stays there.
- Michigan locked down too late to make any difference
- Sweden reached herd immunity
- Michigan is awfully close to reaching herd immunity.
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phil3
Guest
So having the lowest mortality death rate of the Western civilization world isnt enough?
the UK has a mortality rate of 11.08%, the usa is 2.96% The "world mortality rate is 3.17% You have no clue as to which you speak. Go get facts then come back to discuss. Oh wait, Francis said science has it limits.
the UK has a mortality rate of 11.08%, the usa is 2.96% The "world mortality rate is 3.17% You have no clue as to which you speak. Go get facts then come back to discuss. Oh wait, Francis said science has it limits.
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