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jack63
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I could believe that…would be interested in a reference. Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was higher. I certainly remember the cough and loss off taste and smell.
Breitbart...Pope Francis: Pandemic Has Taught ‘the Greatness of Science, but also Its Limits’
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adamhovey1988
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Thank you Pope Francis! Science is important, but we need to stop acting like it is the only way to find truth. We can find scientific truths with science, we cannot find moral or religious truth with science.
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phil3
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Science looks for facts, truth is for philosophers.
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MikeInVA
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No, all science is the search for the truth. Philosophy was (and perhaps still is among some) considered the highest of the sciences. The major difference between philosophy and the other sciences is that philosophy relies primarily on logic and reason, where the other sciences use physical data.
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phil3
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You are talking about “the truth”, but you have to have facts to get to “the truth”. The only limitation to our science is knowledge.
Any claims about figures in India’s slums are no longer reliable with the revelation that the numbers were ‘hushed up’.
How Covid numbers were hushed up 9/20/20
Researchers acting under government orders expunged from a scientific paper the prevalence rates of the new coronavirus infection in containment zones or hotspots in 10 cities, estimated through a nationwide survey, authoritative sources have said.The head of India’s health research agency, Balram Bhargava, had asked the researchers to remove the infection prevalence data from the 10 cities’ hotspots they had included in their paper, multiple people familiar with these events have told The Telegraph.
Bhargava, director-general of the Indian Council of Medical Research (ICMR) and health research department secretary, told the researchers that the council did not have approval to publish the findings from the hotspots, the sources said.
They said the ICMR chief — himself a co-author of the paper — did not specify who had disapproved the publication or why.
This newspaper spoke to seven of the 74 co-authors. Four of them spoke on the condition of anonymity while three spoke on record.
“We were told: remove the hotspots data or don’t publish,” one co-author said. Two other co-authors corroborated this account.
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Joegrane
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I bet the use of masks is a factor. The following are some notes from videos by Dr Chris Martenson and Dr Paul Marik
Masks= lower viral load = less {intense] illness. [mask study]
Masks reduce severity of wearer ( animals), fewer virus particles received so immune system handles them.
Seafood plant in Oregon. When people wear masks % of those who are asymptomatic skyrockets, even to 90% . @14min Do Kids Spread Covid-19? - YouTube
Also remember the positive spa workers in Missouri. None of the patients got sick.
Chinese study on hamsters. Made cages separated by mask material. Those who got sick became less sick then “maskless” neighbors.
Masks. @44min. study of people breathing. measures condensate–can have more than a billion viruses.
This is so contagious.
Need universal masking. The wearer gets some protection too. So you get a lower viral load–leading to asymptomatic case.
Comparison of two cruise ships: one forced everyone to wear a mask–80% people were asymptomatic. The other no mask only 20% asymptomatic.
Less viral load-- less immune dysregulation. initial viral load important.
If --stresses IF–we ever get a vaccine it might only be 70% effective so will still need a mask.
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Joegrane
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Thanks for the post.
I see from the article that the alleged scandal is about “infection prevalence data” that was withheld. That seems to be about positive tests, maybe people with COVID symptoms. I did not see the definition of the term.
I did not see anything about deaths. “Cases” is murky due to the maybe 50% false positives of the PCR test the way they are being done and categorized in the US. I started a discussion on that scandal here.
It is much harder to hide piles of dead bodies in the largest slum in India. So covering up the positive tests may have nothing to do with death rates.
Having more people actually getting the virus is good for humanity when the vast majority of those cases are mild or asymptomatic. That means we are getting closer to herd immunity without an experimental vaccine and its little-known number of serious and or long-term side effects.
If you are not familiar with the issue of media reports of lots of so called “cases” but very low hospitalization utilization, check out a recent video on the subject by Dr Chris Martenson.
Martenson presents a frightening graph of so called “cases” that may be in reality 50% false positives in the PCR test plus many people with mild or no symptoms. In contrast the ICU utilization in Belgium is very low and in Australia seems to be less than 1% for Covid patients.
Yet the Aussie government loves draconian lockdown measures and in various places in Europe leaders are threatening similarly.
Martenson also presents a dubious statement by the UK health ministerr about the accuracy of the PCR test and false positives. The minister is either deceiving the public or is badly misinformed–unlikely.
In that clip Martenson presents the math he thinks is accurate–a 50% false positive rate. If you don’t trust Martenson’s math, Dr. Birx of Pres Trump’s task force presented similar information many months ago in this 2 minute clip.
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Joegrane
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…continued
So I’m still inclined to think that the report about India’s largest slum having a better death rate than the US and most of Europe is largely correct. I don’t think you’d get that report if there were piles of dead bodies and mass burials.
India’s largest slum reportedly used a treatment protocol that was not widely used in the US and Europe–EARLY administration of modest doses of hydroxycloroquine (HCQ) plus zinc plus vitamin D, etc.
There are impressive reports from doctors in the US and elsewhere who have used a very similar protocol. Strangely there are very few studies of EARLY outpatient use of that protocol.
For example, A doctor from Southern California along the Mexican border says he has treated roughly 1,700 COVID patients. He reports NO deaths and only one short hospitalization! He says a professor from UCLA was coming down on Sundays to help him and worked with him on the protocol and documentation. That prof knows Dr Zelenko who pioneered the protocol-- HCQ, plus zinc, antibiotic and more in the sickest patients. At one point he mentioned vitamin D as well. It seems his patient population included many younger migrants from Mexico but even so the numbers seem impressive.
The interview is done by an Oxford grad and former “university lecturer” who interviews other professors and doctors about COVID treatments. I highly recommend the site.
So I’m still inclined to think that the report about India’s largest slum having a better death rate than the US and most of Europe is largely correct. I don’t think you’d get that report if there were piles of dead bodies and mass burials.
India’s largest slum reportedly used a treatment protocol that was not widely used in the US and Europe–EARLY administration of modest doses of hydroxycloroquine (HCQ) plus zinc plus vitamin D, etc.
There are impressive reports from doctors in the US and elsewhere who have used a very similar protocol. Strangely there are very few studies of EARLY outpatient use of that protocol.
For example, A doctor from Southern California along the Mexican border says he has treated roughly 1,700 COVID patients. He reports NO deaths and only one short hospitalization! He says a professor from UCLA was coming down on Sundays to help him and worked with him on the protocol and documentation. That prof knows Dr Zelenko who pioneered the protocol-- HCQ, plus zinc, antibiotic and more in the sickest patients. At one point he mentioned vitamin D as well. It seems his patient population included many younger migrants from Mexico but even so the numbers seem impressive.
The interview is done by an Oxford grad and former “university lecturer” who interviews other professors and doctors about COVID treatments. I highly recommend the site.
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jack63
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To give another example of the limits of Science that I read about recently…
The governor of Michigan’s executive power to enforce lockdowns were taken away from her, and she was told to work with the legislature. Before this she was making arbitrary decisions without (name removed by moderator)ut from the legislature.
Second don’t completely bypass the legislature! Our scripture praises the legislative system…1 Maccabees 8:15 (from A Eulogy of the Romans)
The governor of Michigan’s executive power to enforce lockdowns were taken away from her, and she was told to work with the legislature. Before this she was making arbitrary decisions without (name removed by moderator)ut from the legislature.
Two things about this really strike me. First the suit was filed in the first place by members of the medical community over banning nonessential procedures. Talk about a limit of science…medical doctors are not in agreement. Part of the medical community was the source of this lawsuit.
Second don’t completely bypass the legislature! Our scripture praises the legislative system…1 Maccabees 8:15 (from A Eulogy of the Romans)
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jack63
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jack63:
I agree that it makes sense that the use of masks are a factor. Masks are a good yet uncomfortable thing. I wear them.
It is worth noting that mask compliance is not great in the US though.I also think people should consider this reduction in viral load is herd immunity. It makes sense if people get sick, they get far less sick because they’ve already had Covid on some level, they have less viral load, and less viral load to pass onto others, who in turn have even less viral load.
This is beginning to recognized be even the Washington post (a mainstream left to moderate newspaper)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/10/09/covid-mortality-rate-down/
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Joegrane
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It is amazing that a group of Yale professors would lie to the public about the safety and efficacy of hydroxycloroquine when their colleague, Dr H. Risch, has been bravely on the front lines confronting the deceptions. Those “rigorously conducted clinical trials” were designed to fail and deceive as I will explain below.
I’m sorry for the delay in responding to your post. It is easy for the Yale profs to issue a statement with no evidence provided. They essentially are asking everyone to believe the [corrupt] researchers.
In contrast, Risch is out there crunching the numbers, providing meta-analysis of groups of studies and presenting other available data.
For example, while not a formal study the experience of Switzerland after the publication of the fictitious HCQ study in the Lancet medical journal is valuable.
“Describing a “natural experiment” in Switzerland, Yale’s Dr. Risch has noted:”
‘On May 27, the Swiss national government banned outpatient use of hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19. Around June 10, COVID-19 deaths increased four-fold and remained elevated. On June 11, the Swiss government revoked the ban, and on June 23 the death rate reverted to what it had been beforehand.’
I encourage everyone to read the entire article at Children’s Health Defense, an org run by the nephew of President Kennedy.
In the early days of the pandemic in NYC a doctor Zelenko started using a combination of hydroxycloroquine (HCQ), zinc and antibiotic. He noticed a huge 84% reduction in hospitalization of his patients.
Dr Z’s video went viral. He got calls from the White House, FDA and foreign governments about his protocol.
After all this time I don’t think anyone has done a study to replicate the protocol Dr Z. used!? This is low dose HCQ in outpatients in the first week of symptoms plus zinc and antibiotic.
Instead we received mostly studies of HCQ–an antiviral that slows viral replication-- in moderately and very sick patients in the second phase of COVID after the peak in viral load, without zinc and sometimes without antibiotic.
In the Recovery trial in the UK funded in part by Bill Gates they were giving doses of HCQ 5 times what the US and UK governments recommend! One doctor suggested they were giving homicidal doses to very sick people. A med school prof said he thinks the study was designed to kill people! Another doctor said this at best was malpractice.
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Joegrane
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…continued
The typical response to my question about why Dr. Zelenko’s protocol was not replicated is the study at the U of MN by Boulware, et al. The US FDA used that study as part of its reason to discontinue emergency use authorization.
However the Boulware studies–two of them–were deceptive junk! It was little more than a modest sized Internet survey where they did not actually examine patients or confirm COVID diagnosis. Actually those using HCQ had slightly better outcomes at each of the time periods of the study, but not enough to be statistically significant. They did not use zinc and did not prioritize early administration.
In the other study by Boulware a different researcher evaluated the raw data and concluded that HCQ was quite helpful when started very EARLY, within the first two days.
“For 0 to 2 days after exposure to virus, the estimated relative reduction in symptomatic outcomes is 72% after 0 days, 48.9% after 1 day and 29.3% after 2 days.”
Notice the importance of EARLY administration. So all of those studies of HCQ in very sick patients in the ICU were nonsense, probably designed to fail.
For example data from outpatients in Brazil.
However corrupt public officials and their friends in the media spin the deceptive studies against HCQ and its real role in the early days after symptom onset.
Dr. Chris Martenson explains in a 5 minute clip two HCQ studies designed to fail and CNN’s deceptive coverage.
CNN’s soft coverage of a fairly large study reporting half the deaths in the treated group.
continued…
The typical response to my question about why Dr. Zelenko’s protocol was not replicated is the study at the U of MN by Boulware, et al. The US FDA used that study as part of its reason to discontinue emergency use authorization.
However the Boulware studies–two of them–were deceptive junk! It was little more than a modest sized Internet survey where they did not actually examine patients or confirm COVID diagnosis. Actually those using HCQ had slightly better outcomes at each of the time periods of the study, but not enough to be statistically significant. They did not use zinc and did not prioritize early administration.
In the other study by Boulware a different researcher evaluated the raw data and concluded that HCQ was quite helpful when started very EARLY, within the first two days.
“For 0 to 2 days after exposure to virus, the estimated relative reduction in symptomatic outcomes is 72% after 0 days, 48.9% after 1 day and 29.3% after 2 days.”
Notice the importance of EARLY administration. So all of those studies of HCQ in very sick patients in the ICU were nonsense, probably designed to fail.
For example data from outpatients in Brazil.
However corrupt public officials and their friends in the media spin the deceptive studies against HCQ and its real role in the early days after symptom onset.
Dr. Chris Martenson explains in a 5 minute clip two HCQ studies designed to fail and CNN’s deceptive coverage.
CNN’s soft coverage of a fairly large study reporting half the deaths in the treated group.
continued…
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Joegrane
Guest
…continued
If we don’t expose the deception and hold deceivers accountable they will be emboldened to even greater deception the next time! The deception this time has cost tens of thousands of lives according to Dr. Reich. What will be the cost the next time?
Gov. Cuomo tried to deceive by saying he did not order nursing homes to accept COVID positive patients! CNN actually exposed Cuomo’s deception.
If we don’t expose the deception and hold deceivers accountable they will be emboldened to even greater deception the next time! The deception this time has cost tens of thousands of lives according to Dr. Reich. What will be the cost the next time?
Gov. Cuomo tried to deceive by saying he did not order nursing homes to accept COVID positive patients! CNN actually exposed Cuomo’s deception.
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