Bring guns to church?

[Bradski]

I don’t know how good a deterrent a gunI feel pretty good having my guns close at hand or on me. I say this as a father and husband.

The mindset that says it all. I would feel horrified if I thought that a fair proportion of the people in the street, or in the bar, or in the restaurant, were carrying guns.

Americans don’t seem to realise that for most people it is EXCEPTIONALLY unnerving to think that anyone at all might be carrying a gun. I really cannot stress that enough.

 

[Brendan]

The mindset that says it all. I would feel horrified if I thought that a fair proportion of the people in the street, or in the bar, or in the restaurant, were carrying guns.

Americans don’t seem to realise that for most people it is EXCEPTIONALLY unnerving to think that anyone at all might be carrying a gun. I really cannot stress that enough.

Why? Or more specifically, why such an irrational fear over a simple mechanical object?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The mindset that says it all. I would feel horrified if I thought that a fair proportion of the people in the street, or in the bar, or in the restaurant, were carrying guns.

Americans don’t seem to realise that for most people it is EXCEPTIONALLY unnerving to think that anyone at all might be carrying a gun. I really cannot stress that enough.

It really depends on where you live. In the rural areas, well, guns are worn openly or even brought to church. And it is different in this day and age. When I was young (high school) we lived in a city but had access to farm lands. So we would put our shotguns and rifles in our cars or trucks and go hunting after school. It is crazy if you think about it, high school kids with guns in their cars and no one cared. There were no rules saying you couldn’t do it and it was done by many a hunter in the fall. And (gasp) no shootings! But now, it would seem that the inner cities are the main case to carry a gun. There are parts of Detroit or Chicago that are as scary as anything anywhere else. And honestly though it may appear weird to outsiders, I feel better knowing that every day average Joes may be armed. Because the criminal element IS armed and I feel better knowing that the nice average person next to me may be armed. I trust an armed population. Historically most populations were armed with some sort of weapons. And though we consider it fun to think about historical times as being extremely violent. They were not. (But that does not make for good movies)
In the 1800s some sod busters in the midwest were not shooting each other just because they had guns.

The other thing to take into account is there is a LARGE underclass that people ignore. Poverty, Drugs, Crime that social policies have not even begun to scratch the surface. Some of us choose not to see it until it is on TV news, but it is there. Every day. And an armed citizenry is sadly part of the solution.

Think about this. I live in a quiet suburban neighborhood. (well for 4 more days) Next door to me is a policeman (armed) and on the other side of me is a fireman (also armed) So are their wives. I carry as well. Then our neighborhood gets pretty geriatric. But guess what, most of them are armed as well. And, no real crime on our street. The fireman does not get drunk and shoot the policeman, I don’t whip out my gun and rob the old lady across the street. And people don’t break into our houses. But just one neighborhood away is a lower class area. People don’t have guns in gun safes or permits, they don’t have a cop car next door. The people who can rob or steal enough money have a gun until it is stolen or bought from them. Using currencies that we don’t really think about. Drugs, Food stamps, heck even packs of diapers or baby formula. And it is a place where being armed is probably a good idea. Parts of the world do not have our issues yet. America has always been a leader with freedoms so the gun issue would naturally fall into that. But we also are still very much a frontier land. But now the frontier is less John Wayne and more civil unrest. You can see it on the news, you can taste it in the air. Things are getting more and more volatile. The NRA used to argue for guns for hunting. Now, you never hear that argument any more. Now it is about personal protection this has been a marked shift in the last decade or so. Is it because no one hunts anymore? No, it is because there is a larger and more important practical reason to be allowed to own a gun…

 

[Brendan]

It really depends on where you live. In the rural areas, well, guns are worn openly or even brought to church. And it is different in this day and age. When I was young (high school) we lived in a city but had access to farm lands. So we would put our shotguns and rifles in our cars or trucks and go hunting after school.

I was taught to shoot by the Catholic Church. The minor seminary in a nearby diocese had week long summer camps for boys.

The seminary had a shooting range on the campus, a room full of 22’s, and a Benedictine monk was the Instructor\Chief RSO

 

[styrgwillidar]

The suspicion of outside observers is that the volume of guns in the community has fed the increase of gun crime… and gun culture which has led people to feel safer with more guns in the mix. … .

Well, since violent crime has dropped significantly as the volume of guns has increased, and as states in the US have liberalized gun laws (i.e. made it easier to obtain a CCW permit and carry), you can understand why folks would feel safer. The US is far safer now than it was a decade or two ago before the shift in gun laws.

Now-- too many folks see the easing of gun laws as the cause when it could simply be correlation. A lot of other things happening in our society at the same time which could also explain the drop in crime-- longer sentences for violent criminals for example.

 

[PoorKnight]

I carry a gun at every Mass, and everywhere I go, in fact. I have no problems concentrating on the Mass and being very spiritual while carrying at Mass. Why? Because I know it is part of my vocation. CCC 2263-2267 tells about “Legitimate Defense”. Logically, if there is Legitimate Defense, there are Legitimate Defenders. In addition, if there is “Just War” there are “Just Warriors.”

In recent years society - and many Catholics living there in - has tried to stamp out the idea of a Holy Warrior from our consciousness. In movies and T.V. cops are “on the take”, horrible fathers, use excessive force, drug or alcohol addicts etc… Soldiers the same. Even Blue Bloods has Danny who will water board suspects (basically) or threaten them with a lit blow torch. Society today, including the human element in the Catholic Church, wants to destroy - or at least burry - the idea of a Holy Warrior (even the martyrs at the end of the Battle of Hattin - executed, after being captured, solely for being Catholic - have never been recognized as such.)

So much so, have we tried to eliminate this from our list of vocations that EVERY “knights” order in the Catholic Church gave up their military aspect.

Look at the news. Everyday Cops around this nation save lives, directly, in very dramatic ways. How many of those videos have you seen? One of my co-workers just last week, pulled a man from a fully engulfed car. Did you see that on the news? No, but you know everything about the officers in Fergusson, in Texas, and in Baltimore etc. To say it’s a double standard would be the understatement of the Century!

If we teach that Holy Warrior / Just Warrior / Legitimate Defender is a viable vocation again, I would bet we’d see a drop in violence in society - that and eliminate TV… but that’s a topic for another day.

I’ll finish with a little paraphrase of a parable, told by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman (ret).

There are sheep, wolves and sheepdogs. The sheep are the innocent members of society who would only hurt eachother by accident. Then there are the wolves who prey on the sheep without mercy. The Sheepdogs have every violent capacity of the wolf but they have one thing the wolf lacks: love of the sheep.

The Sheepdog watches the horizon, growls at shadows, sniffs the wind and the ground, patrols the perimeter.

The sheep are squeamish around the Sheepdogs because they remind the sheep that the wolf exists. Many sheep would rather see the Sheepdogs turn in their fangs, paint themselves white and make the say “baaaa.” But the Sheepdog would never be fulfilled doing that.

The Sheepdog EXISTS to confront the wolf and protect the sheep.

I am a Sheepdog. I live to confront the wolf and protect the sheep. I live to serve the Shepherd. :signofthecross:

 

[Wampa]

I’ll finish with a little paraphrase of a parable, told by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman (ret). There are sheep, wolves and sheepdogs…

Wow, this is a really moving way to give me (as a sheep) a different perspective. Thank you for that!

I have mixed emotions on gun control, but when I read about the 39 people killed by one lone terrorist with a gun in Tunisia today, I couldn’t help but wonder how many of those lives could have been saved if just one good person on that beach had been carrying

 

[LongingSoul]

I have mixed emotions on gun control, but when I read about the 39 people killed by one lone terrorist with a gun in Tunisia today, I couldn’t help but wonder how many of those lives could have been saved if just one good person on that beach had been carrying

I view the situation in almost the opposite light to you. People argue that if you allow contraception and abortion in poor communities and third world countries, it follows that you save loads of poor people from a life of suffering. The equation might be logical but it isn’t humane. Our solutions for these problems have to be moral and long sighted because we are but custodians of the species and the world. We want to leave good principles for the generations to come, not just solve our own problems without foresight.

 

[GEddie]

Why? Or more specifically, why such an irrational fear over a simple mechanical object?

Because it is an object designed to end human life with the twitch of a finger.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Rosebud77]

After living most of my life in the UK when there were no armed police on the streets, I came to Ireland, where now in some cities eg Limerick, we have Armed Response Units on call and now the debate re tasers. I had never seen a real gun in the flesh so to speak. One day I drove a friend to a town to bank and while I was waiting for her, the car was surrounded by armed soldiers… there was a cash delivery to the bank. I knew utter terror. The sight of the guns…shudder Happened many times if I was in a town at the wrong time and I never got used to it. .Hard to imagine a country where all this happens so often. One thought occurs ( and I have not read the whole trhead) that if folk carry weapons in the street would they have to hand them in at the church door? I think I have seen that in films? Thankfully I live very rural and yet see guns carried by hunters… yukk…someone posted on a forum a thread on airport police and after seeing the photos I do not think I will ever travel again!

 

[Brendan]

Because it is an object designed to end human life with the twitch of a finger.

ICXC NIKA

A martial arts black belt can do that with a swing of an arm, how rational would it be to walk around worried that the people next to you might be martial artists?

 

[Brendan]

I view the situation in almost the opposite light to you. People argue that if you allow contraception and abortion in poor communities and third world countries, it follows that you save loads of poor people from a life of suffering. The equation might be logical but it isn’t humane. Our solutions for these problems have to be moral and long sighted because we are but custodians of the species and the world. We want to leave good principles for the generations to come, not just solve our own problems without foresight.

Though none of the solutions being proposed (unlike your contraception or abortion analogy) are immoral.

 

[Bradski]

A martial arts black belt can do that with a swing of an arm, how rational would it be to walk around worried that the people next to you might be martial artists?

Don’t be trite.

It takes quite a while and a lot of effort and commitment to reach a stage where you could kill a person with your bare hands. To reach such a position you generally expect the person with that ability to have been taught that it is to be used for defence and to treat the ability with a certain respect.

It takes a minute or two to show someone how to kill dozens of people with a gun.

 

[Brendan]

Don’t be trite.

It takes quite a while and a lot of effort and commitment to reach a stage where you could kill a person with your bare hands. To reach such a position you generally expect the person with that ability to have been taught that it is to be used for defence and to treat the ability with a certain respect.

It takes a minute or two to show someone how to kill dozens of people with a gun.

But the point still remains. On any given street, there is a probability that someone has the ability to kill you. How much level of fear should there be.

And in regards to training and general respect for the ability, concealed pistol holders must receive training, in both the law and pass firearms safety and shooting requirements ( in Michigan, the scores are the same for what the police have to do to qualify)

So what guarantee do you have the martial artist that you don’t know about on the street has a greater respect for their ability to kill that the concealed pistol holder that you don’t know about.

And in reality, the level of training needs to kill an untrained person with bare hands is really not that great. Military basic training teaches that in about a week. If the other person is also a martial artist and alert, I will admit that it requires a bit more training (or more specifically skill, which is a different thing)

Also, a kid could get their black belt. I know some as young as 12, but you would probably have to be about 15 or 16 to get the body mass to readily kill someone.

So while you have 16 year olds walking the streets with the ability to kill, you have to be at least 21 to get a concealed pistol license. So we can also talk about maturity levels too

 

[GEddie]

A martial arts black belt can do that with a swing of an arm, how rational would it be to walk around worried that the people next to you might be martial artists?

Something that takes years of effort is much rarer as a threat than something that costs a few days’ wages.

Also, no matter what belt you have, you can’t kill from hundreds of feet.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Brendan]

Something that takes years of effort is much rarer as a threat than something that costs a few days’ wages.

Also, no matter what belt you have, you can’t kill from hundreds of feet.

ICXC NIKA

As I mentioned in my post above, it does not take years to obtain that skill, it’s taught in a bout a week a basic training.

So the fact remains, there are people out on the street that have the ability to kill you, you don’t know who they are. Their ability or tool is concealed.

How should that impact your life? How uneasy should one be if there is knowledge that someone walking on the same street as you went through military boot camp, or has martial arts training or a concealed pistol permit.

How rational is the fear.

Then look at Rosebuds post. Rosebud ‘knew utter terror’ because there were armed bank guards unloading truck.

Would you consider that to be a rational fear? After all, Rosebud could have been killed, as you put it, from hundreds of feet away?

 

[LongingSoul]

As I mentioned in my post above, it does not take years to obtain that skill, it’s taught in a bout a week a basic training.

So the fact remains, there are people out on the street that have the ability to kill you, you don’t know who they are. Their ability or tool is concealed.

How should that impact your life? How uneasy should one be if there is knowledge that someone walking on the same street as you went through military boot camp, or has martial arts training or a concealed pistol permit.

How rational is the fear.

Then look at Rosebuds post. Rosebud ‘knew utter terror’ because there were armed bank guards unloading truck.

Would you consider that to be a rational fear? After all, Rosebud could have been killed, as you put it, from hundreds of feet away?

I think the American experience is what has put the hatred and revulsion of guns into the civilised world. We know that guns are a fact of war and we know that guns are a fact of policing and we know that rifles are necessary for farming and sport. They are a necessary evil in limited circumstances.

What many people see as being distorted is the type of love or lust for guns that sees people fight against regulation or any examination of the gun problems, despite a history of crazed gunman, massacres that make no sense to anyone, carnage of little kindergartners. Many people would wonder if the founding fathers meant for there to be bare limits on gun ownership despite the fact that more Americans are killed by their fellow Americans every day than are ever lost to ‘foreign or domestic enemies’. It seems like the gun has become the point rather than genuine security of person.

 

[LongingSoul]

Though none of the solutions being proposed (unlike your contraception or abortion analogy) are immoral.

The last few popes and the US Bishops Conference are increasingly speaking up about gun control indicating that it needs to be subject to moral examination. In my analogies I used the term ‘humane’ to highlight that a solution that does not consider the numbers of people killed for the sake of preserving a right, goes against the good of whole species.

 

[GEddie]

As I mentioned in my post above, it does not take years to obtain that skill, it’s taught in a bout a week a basic training.

So the fact remains, there are people out on the street that have the ability to kill you, you don’t know who they are. Their ability or tool is concealed.

How should that impact your life? How uneasy should one be if there is knowledge that someone walking on the same street as you went through military boot camp, or has martial arts training or a concealed pistol permit.

How rational is the fear.

Then look at Rosebuds post. Rosebud ‘knew utter terror’ because there were armed bank guards unloading truck.

Would you consider that to be a rational fear? After all, Rosebud could have been killed, as you put it, from hundreds of feet away?

I in no way fear the soldiers of my country. (Unlike those members of the gun-culture who see everything governmental as the shadow of tyranny and seek to arm against it.)

Because the country has not used conscription in two generations, those who attend basic training are the fittest (mentally and bodily) and most highminded of its youth. They also know that they are held to a higher standard of conduct than are the masses and that severe consequences await those who violate that standard.

I trust them much more than average citizens who seek killing ability in order to feel empowered.

In fact, I think that if a course of military training were required to own a firearm, everybody would be better off.

And comparing soldiers to martial artists is apples and pebbles. Martial-arts hobbyists would take years to become lethally proficient.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Comparing it to martial arts is not productive. It does not matter. People are beaten to death, poisoned, stabbed shot strangled etc all the time. Guns might be easier but murders are as old as the first children…