Brothers of Christ for Mickey

[ckempston]

Like I said, no one has proven that the contents are not actually from Papias. Sure they were contained in a dictionary. The statements must have come from a Tradition in the Church, right? I mean Eusebius records many facts in his history. Would it be valid to say that he just made everything up at the time he wrote them?

Nobody has proven there aren’t invisible pink unicorns in my back yard either, but that doesn’t mean they exist. You made an affirmative claim: namely that Papias was reliable, and supports certain doctrines. It’s up to you to prove this, not anybody else to disprove it. It’s called “burden of proof.”

No one has denied it, not even the ANF writers.

None of the ANFs denied invisible pink unicorns either.

Which would indicate the truth of the Catholic position.

Which would indicate the truth of the non-Catholic position.

Because they could have been half-brothers (which I think is the more plausible interpretation). Some Traditions claim they were half-brothers (from a previous marriage by Joseph). Some say they were cousins. But the common thread in all the Traditions is that they were NOT the Blessed Virgin’s own biological children.

Traditions that popped up several hundred years after Christ. They’re not Apostolic in origin.

If they were half-brothers, they would have been part of the same family. I don’t see anything peculiar about that.

That wouldn’t be half-brothers, FYI, but step-brothers. And Jesus’ geneology in Luke would make no sense, because as the non-eldest son, he wouldn’t have been the “heir” in Joseph’s geneology.

I don’t know. It seems to me the passage is only distinguishing between spiritual brotherhood versus brotherhood “according to the flesh.” Brotherhood “according to the flesh” could easily mean cousins or half-brothers.

No, there are words for cousin and kinsman as has already been pointed out. This claim is on very shaky ground. Brothers means brothers. Especially when sisters (adelphe) is also used. If they simply wanted to say (loosely) brethren, then they would have used adelphoi, which is what that means. The writers specify “brothers and sisters” making it all the more likely that these are actual brothers and sisters.

 

[Mickey]

Traditions that popped up several hundred years after Christ. They’re not Apostolic in origin.

Sure they are! Have you never heard of Apostolic succession?

It is the odd interpretations of the reformed churches with no Apostolic succession that surfaced 1500 years later that is not Apostolic in origin.

 

[Mickey]

The writers specify “brothers and sisters” making it all the more likely that these are actual brothers and sisters.

Wrong.

 

[ckempston]

Yes. There are many examples of the word “until” being used in a different way. The protestant “until argument” does not hold water.

Another claim with no proof. Please provide some if you want to make this claim. Provide a quote from the Bible that uses the word for “until” and does not indicate a change of state, i.e.:

State A → UNTIL → State A remains

 

[ckempston]

Sure they are! Have you never heard of Apostolic succession?

It is the odd interpretations of the reformed churches with no Apostolic succession that surfaced 1500 years later that is not Apostolic in origin.

No, it’s the Apostolic Succession that was made up several hundred years after Christ.

 

[ckempston]

Wrong.

No, right. The speakers were being very specific. The use of adelphe indicates they really were sisters. Period.

 

[ralphinal]

Another claim with no proof. Please provide some if you want to make this claim. Provide a quote from the Bible that uses the word for “until” and does not indicate a change of state, i.e.:

State A → UNTIL → State A remains

Matt 28:20

 

[Mickey]

No, right. The speakers were being very specific. The use of adelphe indicates they really were sisters. Period.

Period?
Good try. But no bananas.

Let us hear from St Jerome:

I say spiritual because all of us Christians are called brethren, as in the verse, Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity. … Shall we say they are brethren by race? … Again, if all men, as such, were His brethren, it would have been foolish to deliver a special message, Behold, your brethren seek you, for all men alike were entitled to the name … Just as Lot was called Abraham’s brother, and Jacob Laban’s, just as the daughters of Zelophehad received a lot among their brethren, just as Abraham himself had to wife Sarah his sister, for he says, Genesis 20:11 She is indeed my sister, on the father’s side, not on the mother’s, that is to say, she was the daughter of his brother, not of his sister.
**St. Jerome, Against Helvidius.
**

 

[Mickey]

No, it’s the Apostolic Succession that was made up several hundred years after Christ.

You are a hoot!

 

[Mickey]

Matt 28:20

Yes. That is one of many.

 

[ralphinal]

Yes. That is one of many.

I like it better than the one about Mical not having children UNTIL she died.

 

[ckempston]

Matt 28:20

Is that all you’ve got? Please! Jesus is no longer with them in the sense that he stated here, since, after the end of the age (whenever that happens to be), they would be in heaven.

 

[ckempston]

I like it better than the one about Mical not having children UNTIL she died.

Let’s stick with Greek.

 

[ckempston]

Period?
Good try. But no bananas.

Let us hear from St Jerome:

I say spiritual because all of us Christians are called brethren, as in the verse, Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity. … Shall we say they are brethren by race? … Again, if all men, as such, were His brethren, it would have been foolish to deliver a special message, Behold, your brethren seek you, for all men alike were entitled to the name … Just as Lot was called Abraham’s brother, and Jacob Laban’s, just as the daughters of Zelophehad received a lot among their brethren, just as Abraham himself had to wife Sarah his sister, for he says, Genesis 20:11 She is indeed my sister, on the father’s side, not on the mother’s, that is to say, she was the daughter of his brother, not of his sister.
**St. Jerome, Against Helvidius.
**

Ok, so over a plain reading of a passage, you choose this kind of mental gymnastics?

You know what you sound like? A Prostestant interpreting John 6.

 

[Mickey]

Ok, so over a plain reading of a passage, you choose this kind of mental gymnastics?

St Jerome is a mental gymnast? Oh my! I suppose you are entitled to your odd opinions. You must be very frustrated.

You know what you sound like? A Prostestant interpreting John 6.

LOL! I have never been accused of interpreting John 6 in a protestant manner–until now.

 

[Mickey]

I like it better than the one about Mical not having children UNTIL she died.

This one offered by canto is also good:

“Luke 1:80 says that John the Bapitst was in the wilderness “until the day of his manifestation to Israel.” Does this mean that once he appeared he left the wilderness?”

When it is said “until X, I never did Y”—it does not mean that "after X, I did do Y.

This is a false assumption.

 

[ckempston]

St Jerome is a mental gymnast? Oh my! I suppose you are entitled to your odd opinions. You must be very frustrated.
LOL! I have never been accused of interpreting John 6 in a protestant manner–until now.

Read this very slowly: you sound LIKE a Protestant interpreting John 6. I didn’t say you WERE interpreting John 6 like a Protestant, but LIKE Protestants, who have to perform all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify their interpretation, you are interpreting the passage about Jesus’ brothers and sisters. Does this spell it out a little easier for you?

 

[Mickey]

but LIKE Protestants, who have to perform all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify their interpretation

Are you protestant?

LIKE Protestants…you are interpreting the passage about Jesus’ brothers and sisters.

Well then…good thing I am not protestant. I take my interpretations from Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the writings of the Holy Church Fathers.

Yourself?

 

[Mickey]

Read this very slowly:

You must be very frustrated. The truth has a way of pricking the conscience. May you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

 

[ckempston]

Are you protestant?
Well then…good thing I am not protestant. I take my interpretations from Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the writings of the Holy Church Fathers.

Yourself?

I’m not Catholic, but I would not likely be welcomed by most Protestant denominations as I do not believe in Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide, etc.

You take your interpretations from select Sacred Scriptures, select Sacred Traditions, and select Holy Church Fathers. You don’t believe everything they say, but only what the Magesterium tells you to believe.