Bruce Jenner's Début as "Caitlyn"

[Murmurs]

If a mental disease actually required physical treatment, then it wouldn’t just be a mental disease. Right? In other words, some mental disorders are treated with external therapies, like counseling. Persons with chemical imbalances or something like that have a physical issue.

Some mental illnesses are treated with what are physical (eg chemical) remedies, such as antidepressants. Depression is certainly a wholly mental illness even though it may present physical symptoms (such is the power of the brain!).

I think I’d argue that people who find their sex (physical) doesn’t match their gender (emotional and social)…well you could say its a mental illness (though I don’t know if thats a helpful way to think of this issue) - but the way to at least ameliorate the situation is a physical remedy. (Antidepressants dont’ “cure” depression but may make a problem easier to live with)?

I don’t know really…just posing the question!

 

[EasterJoy]

Who’s “they”?

It’s interesting that when people present views that are the opposite of many on this forum, people here say they are “pushing” something or that they have an “agenda”.

And yet,when people here try to promote or publicize or voice their views and beliefs to society, they are “evangelizing” or “speaking the truth”.

If one person were trying to argue in favor of democracy and another was trying to argue in favor of fascism, would you hold that both belief systems are equally true?

There are things that are true and things that are false. The idea that the best thing for everyone is for people with gender dysphoria to be allowed to pretend that a man can be made into a woman and not only try to live according to that pretense but to force everyone to speak as if that pretense is reality is false. It may be well-meant, but it is wrong.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Yes, you don’t become a real woman just by taking hormones and telling Vanity Fair readers you are a woman. As for 65 year old Jenner I would tell him that we have earned our stripes by being wives and mothers and in some cases, grandmothers.

Nice to know some people think our realness as women is based on our ability to breed instead of us having inherent dignity as children of God. By the way, the Bible says that it is better for a woman to remain a virgin than to marry and none of the women doctors of the Church were mothers.

That is what the study found…that is, that the suicide rate after surgery is still far higher than the general population. This is not a cure. It is not a ticket to satisfaction. It does not “right a wrong” and set the patient free.

Should we cease chemotherapy as the five year outcome is still far worse for many stages and types of cancer than the general population?

I don’t think it’s a fine line at all. Descriptors like “Monstrosity”, “Horrifying”, “Insane”, and “Demented” are not necessary to speak the truth.

E.g.: I don’t support Bruce’s “transition” for his own good. It is bad science and it is harmful.

I have no idea why some people think those are acceptable words to refer to people.

Yep.

I remember, in the '90’s, my brother commenting on a guy who on Friday came to work as Sam and on Monday, as Samantha (who was an engineer), it was an engineering firm.

My brother,who’s quite droll, said the makeup was plastered on and the stubble was showing through (I felt soo sorry for the guy, at that time), but in the UK the person must live as the other gender, before getting hormone therapy, for 2 years.

One comment my brother made was that the guy came into work with high heels and a mini skirt on, i.e. not in female trousers/ pants. A few years back, I spoke to another engineer, a friend, mentioning the story above and he said 4 engineers in his firm had done the same, came in one day, out of the blue, dressed as women, as above.

Personally, I believe there is some ‘sexual’ element attached to male-female trans, as it seems to be based on the superficial, world-generated sexualisation of a woman - i.e. loads of makeup, short skirts, high heels - as opposed to the trans person developing ‘feminine-like’ emotional qualities. But who knows.

Transitioning is kind of like going through puberty again and lets face it, many teenager girls would try to dress that way if their mothers didn’t threaten to ground them forever. The loads of makeup is a consequence of a) makeup being an acquired skill, and b) the face not naturally being the feminine for transwomen pre-hormones especially for older ones.

Saying it’s photshopped while providing no evidence to support the claim?

no doubt it’s speculation.

I think it is more a consequence of Vanity Fair not having run a photo that hasn’t been shopped in this century.

The study cited in the article does not support the claims Donohue makes!

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

What Donohue states is not my experience nor the experience of most transsexuals that I know who experienced improvements in quality of life and over all mental health.

Now now, lets not let those little things called facts get in the way.

Perhaps, but other data does.

“Those who have medically transitioned (45%) and surgically transitioned (43%) have higher rates of attempted suicide than those who have not (34% and 39% respectively).”

Source: National Transgender Discrimination Survey Report on Health and Health Care, data pertains to the transgender population only.

thetaskforce.org/static_html/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_report_on_health.pdf

With respect, I trust this over your anecdotal evidence. The Report is sponsored by the leading transgender equality group. If it says such a significant portion of transitioned commit suicide, I see no reason not to believe it. The report was solely made for the care and concern of trans people.

The data doesn’t quite support what you say it says, the people who transition are likely to have faced even worse dysphoria before hand which is why they transitioned.

I disagree, if his child relates more so with a dinosaur, we should let him live his life as a dinosaur…this is the thinking of all the Jenner supporters.

There was a call on a talk radio show yesterday I liked, a guy called in, said he was a white guy in his 50s, but over the course of his life, he has felt more like a black man, he said all this publicity with bruce jenner has given him the courage to come out, now he wants to do something more about it, he wants to become a black man…Im assuming this guy will be called courageous, a hero, brave, etc…right?

I think that man’s race is troll.

If a mental disease actually required physical treatment, then it wouldn’t just be a mental disease. Right? In other words, some mental disorders are treated with external therapies, like counseling. Persons with chemical imbalances or something like that have a physical issue.

A number of mental disorders strongly benefit from physical treatment such as mood stabilizers.

 

[retire_early]

…well you could say its a mental illness (though I don’t know if thats a helpful way to think of this issue)…

Stop and think for a moment about what you just wrote. Can we never give mental illness the respect it deserves? Its time we grew up and faced mental illness as something deserving of medical intervention instead of some shameful, second-rate keep-in-the-closet-thing, far less deserving of mention, diagnosis or treatment than measles, broken leg, cancer, etc.

Bruce Jenner has a mental illness, plain and (not-so)-simple. Not a time to berate him or make fun of him, but also, not a time to encourage an attitude that says its *not *an illness.

 

[jaxster99]

Please identify the Church teaching that states that transgenderism is sinful or that sex reassignment surgery is definitively sinful.

“Transgenderism” is most definitely against Catholic teachings and, of course, Catholics are called to treat all, including those from the LGBT community, with compassion. Below, I have included some responses from Catholic institutions (along with references to the Catechism & previous statements by the Pope) –

Catholic hospital’s Response to being asked to perform transgender surgery –
“Catholic hospitals are not required to perform abortions, and neither should they be forced to perform transgender operations. There are some medical procedures that run counter to Catholic moral teaching, and they include direct euthanasia, embryonic stem cell experimentation and cloning. If Catholic hospitals are denied the right to proscribe such operations, it effectively nullifies their right to remain Catholic.”

Article by Jason Adkins –
The truth is that God has created us male and female and has made us with a soul and body that are inextricably linked to one another — their union forms a single nature. The body is not merely a shell encompassing my spirit or “real self,” which many who support the new gender theory believe. The body is, indeed, the physical manifestation of my personhood. It is truly me, along with my soul, and my identity as male or female is integral to who I am as a human person (Catechism of the Catholic Church 362-68).

As Pope-emeritus Benedict XVI noted in an important address to the Roman Curia in 2012, a rejection of the reality that we are created male and female is, even if unwittingly, a rejection of the Creator and his creation.

From Article by Anne Hendershott –
Catholics are called to treat all—including all within the LGBT community—with compassion. Yet the Church maintains that people may not change what Pope Benedict XVI has called “their very essence.” In a speech at the Vatican last December, Pope Benedict directly addressed transgender issues by cautioning Catholics about “destroying the very essence of the human creature through manipulating their God-given gender to suit their sexual choices.” Pope Benedict warned that “when freedom to be creative becomes the freedom to create oneself, then necessarily the Maker himself is denied and ultimately man too is stripped of his dignity as a creature of God.”

 

[Havard]

The data doesn’t quite support what you say it says, the people who transition are likely to have faced even worse dysphoria before hand which is why they transitioned.

I suspect I understand your assertion, but would you mind fleshing it out anyway, just so I can intelligently respond? People who go through SRS are required to undergo mental health evaluations. It sounds like you’re suggesting that the higher “after” statistic is due to people being in such poor shape that their fate was essentially sealed before surgery. Where is the evidence this is so? How did they pass the screening? How many of them were prescribed anti-anxiety drugs, anti-depressants, psychotherapy, suicide watch, etc.?

I have a ton more questions about your point, but I should probably wait for you to respond, it may answer many of them.

 

[Murmurs]

If a mental disease actually required physical treatment, then it wouldn’t just be a mental disease. Right? In other words, some mental disorders are treated with external therapies, like counseling. Persons with chemical imbalances or something like that have a physical issue.

I don’t think you can “cure” gender dysphoria. You can treat the symptoms, though (which is what Caitlyn’s going under-the-knife is about).

I suppose you could turn the whole thing on it’s head, and say that the physical body is damaged because it doesn’t fit with the gender someone understands themselves to be - therefore it makes sense to treat the issue by performing physical medicine (I use the term loosely). Either the physical nature is effectively diseased and needs treating…or the mental one is but the best way to amelioriate the condition is a physical therapy. So either way, the surgery is at least for some the best option.

 

[ucfengr]

Okay, Caitlyn Jenner is a woman, and has always known she was a women. Now, should she be able to compete in athletics as a woman? Should college men who identify as women be able to join women’s athletic teams? Should male soldiers who identify as female be judged by the female physical standards? Really, if there’s no meaningful difference between a man and a woman, what is the rationale for holding men and women to different physical standards in the military? How far are people willing to take this?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I suspect I understand your assertion, but would you mind fleshing it out anyway, just so I can intelligently respond? People who go through SRS are required to undergo mental health evaluations. It sounds like you’re suggesting that the higher “after” statistic is due to people being in such poor shape that their fate was essentially sealed before surgery. Where is the evidence this is so? How did they pass the screening? How many of them were prescribed anti-anxiety drugs, anti-depressants, psychotherapy, suicide watch, etc.?

I have a ton more questions about your point, but I should probably wait for you to respond, it may answer many of them.

I’m saying that the suicide attempts mostly happened before SRS because that number is actually life time suicide attempt rate, AFAIK the age of the people who get SRS is higher than those who have not because it takes time to acquire the money. I believe that part of the reason those who have publicly transitioned have a higher risk of suicide than those who have not is because those who have transitioned are more likely to be fired due to gender status, or experience other bigotry.

 

[pete_29]

Bruce Jenner was created by God as a man. Bruce Jenner decided that he is smarter than God and that God made a mistake so Bruce Jenner decides to become a woman. Bruce Jenner thinks God is stupid. Am I missing anything.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Bruce Jenner was created by God as a man. Bruce Jenner decided that he is smarter than God and that God made a mistake so Bruce Jenner decides to become a woman. Bruce Jenner thinks God is stupid. Am I missing anything.

Jenner doesn’t think that God is stupid anymore than a blind person trying to gain sight thinks God is stupid for making them that way.

 

[pete_29]

Jenner doesn’t think that God is stupid anymore than a blind person trying to gain sight thinks God is stupid for making them that way.

Sure he does. A blind person has no choice in the matter, therefore any resentment felt by that person is based upon one of their senses being taken away for a reason that they can’t comprehend. Jenner had a choice. He had “uncomfortable” feelings in his head that affected neither his senses or his health. He chose to think God made a mistake in creating him a man. Maybe he doesn’t think God is stupid, but he at least thinks God is fallible and if that’s the case, God fails to be God. So, if one thinks that Bruce Jenner is a woman, then one has to believe that God makes mistakes,and therefore is not really God.

 

[Havard]

I’m saying that the suicide attempts mostly happened before SRS because that number is actually life time suicide attempt rate, AFAIK the age of the people who get SRS is higher than those who have not because it takes time to acquire the money. I believe that part of the reason those who have publicly transitioned have a higher risk of suicide than those who have not is because those who have transitioned are more likely to be fired due to gender status, or experience other bigotry.

Yet specifically per the report, “Our data does not show at what age the respondents made suicide attempts and therefore it is difficult to draw conclusions about the risk of suicide over their life spans.” There’s no smoking gun that says SRS increases mortality/morbidity. There’s no smoking gun that it decreases, either. But at best, the data is troubling and inconclusive.

 

[Murmurs]

Sure he does. A blind person has no choice in the matter, therefore any resentment felt by that person is based upon one of their senses being taken away for a reason that they can’t comprehend. Jenner had a choice. He had “uncomfortable” feelings in his head that affected neither his senses or his health. He chose to think God made a mistake in creating him a man. Maybe he doesn’t think God is stupid, but he at least thinks God is fallible and if that’s the case, God fails to be God. So, if one thinks that Bruce Jenner is a woman, then one has to believe that God makes mistakes,and therefore is not really God.

For reasons none of us - none of us - can understand - some people are born blind. This is something human beings have for thousands of years had the vocabulary to articulate. More recently, we now have a vocabulary allowing people to articulate that they don’t feel attraction towards members of the opposite sex (homosexual feeling is a very different thing from homosexual acts) - and more recently still, allowing people to articulate that the gender they feel - they know - themselves to be - doesn’t match their physical sex.

For reasons none of us can understand, some people are born with their body not matching their brain. One of these people was born physically a man, Bruce Jenner, and has since been able to do something to align the two - becoming Caitlyn.

It has nothing to do with God in a lot of ways - I’ve no idea of Caitlyn’s personal beliefs but I’m not aware she is either angry that this happened to her at all (though it would be pretty understandable frankly), or thinks she is somehow “smarter” than God.

No one has has said that God made a mistake (any more than I think He made a mistake in making me a lesbian for that matter). We just don’t know why this happens - it does. And now we are able to do something about it. God moves, as the hymn goes, in a mysterious way.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Sure he does. A blind person has no choice in the matter, therefore any resentment felt by that person is based upon one of their senses being taken away for a reason that they can’t comprehend. Jenner had a choice. He had “uncomfortable” feelings in his head that affected neither his senses or his health. He chose to think God made a mistake in creating him a man. Maybe he doesn’t think God is stupid, but he at least thinks God is fallible and if that’s the case, God fails to be God. So, if one thinks that Bruce Jenner is a woman, then one has to believe that God makes mistakes,and therefore is not really God.

God’s permissive will allows for anomalies of all kinds. Since the fall the world is no longer perfect. Why is it impossible that for the brain and the body not to be in sync if people are born with different disabilities or develop them later in life?

 

[pete_29]

For reasons none of us - none of us - can understand - some people are born blind. This is something human beings have for thousands of years had the vocabulary to articulate. More recently, we now have a vocabulary allowing people to articulate that they don’t feel attraction towards members of the opposite sex (homosexual feeling is a very different thing from homosexual acts) - and more recently still, allowing people to articulate that the gender they feel - they know - themselves to be - doesn’t match their physical sex.

For reasons none of us can understand, some people are born with their body not matching their brain. One of these people was born physically a man, Bruce Jenner, and has since been able to do something to align the two - becoming Caitlyn.

It has nothing to do with God in a lot of ways - I’ve no idea of Caitlyn’s personal beliefs but I’m not aware she is either angry that this happened to her at all (though it would be pretty understandable frankly), or thinks she is somehow “smarter” than God.

No one has has said that God made a mistake (any more than I think He made a mistake in making me a lesbian for that matter). We just don’t know why this happens - it does. And now we are able to do something about it. God moves, as the hymn goes, in a mysterious way.

So if I were born a homicidal maniac, I should just start killing people because my brain says it’s alright. God creates us. God creates us male and female. To decide to physically make ourselves into something other than what God created, no matter what our brains tell us, has to be an affront to God’s will. More than that, it makes ourselves God.

 

[Havard]

And now we are able to do something about it. God moves, as the hymn goes, in a mysterious way.

You say that as if there is a particularly clear understanding of transgenderism and a proven course of action.

 

[pete_29]

God’s permissive will allows for anomalies of all kinds. Since the fall the world is no longer perfect. Why is it impossible that for the brain and the body not to be in sync if people are born with different disabilities or develop them later in life?

Because physical disabilities happen without choice. There is nothing anyone’s mind can do if they are born without limbs or without sight, but with circumstances like Jenner’s, it’s all about choice. No one says that a cross like his would be easy to bear, but others have far worse crosses to bear than anything Bruce Jenner is going through. If they can carry theirs, I don’t see what the big deal is that Jenner should carry his without mutilating himself.

 

[Dawnia]

For reasons none of us - none of us - can understand - some people are born blind. This is something human beings have for thousands of years had the vocabulary to articulate. More recently, we now have a vocabulary allowing people to articulate that they don’t feel attraction towards members of the opposite sex (homosexual feeling is a very different thing from homosexual acts) - and more recently still, allowing people to articulate that the gender they feel - they know - themselves to be - doesn’t match their physical sex.

For reasons none of us can understand, some people are born with their body not matching their brain. One of these people was born physically a man, Bruce Jenner, and has since been able to do something to align the two - becoming Caitlyn.

It has nothing to do with God in a lot of ways - I’ve no idea of Caitlyn’s personal beliefs but I’m not aware she is either angry that this happened to her at all (though it would be pretty understandable frankly), or thinks she is somehow “smarter” than God.

No one has has said that God made a mistake (any more than I think He made a mistake in making me a lesbian for that matter). We just don’t know why this happens - it does. And now we are able to do something about it. God moves, as the hymn goes, in a mysterious way.

What hogwash.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Because physical disabilities happen without choice. There is nothing anyone’s mind can do if they are born without limbs or without sight, but with circumstances like Jenner’s, it’s all about choice. No one says that a cross like his would be easy to bear, but others have far worse crosses to bear than anything Bruce Jenner is going through. If they can carry theirs, I don’t see what the big deal is that Jenner should carry his without mutilating himself.

So people with mental disabilities and disorders have a choice?

There are a lot of invisible disorders as well. I live with depression and anxiety; the former appears to be something that runs in the family. These are not my choice either but affect my life in significant ways. I can choose how I deal with them and for me it’s easy because there are effective therapies, including drugs, that help. Transgenderism isn’t really understood and not as easily treated. Transitioning is an option that may save a transgender person’s life. Just knowing it’s a option tomorrow probably keeps some from offing themselves today.