Bruce Jenner's Début as "Caitlyn"

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I could not agree more.

I actually don’t think it’s that difficult. Noting the suicide rates of those post-surgery is reasonable and charitable. Likening those who go through with the surgery to antelopes, pine cones, and dinosaurs is not reasonable or charitable. I can remember the earlier comment in this thread about putting lipstick on a pig. How is that helpful? It might make people here feel better to commiserate with one another. But it does nothing to help those who are in genuine pain. And as Havard noted above, it only serves to depict Christians as bigots. I understand and appreciate the feeling that whatever one says against current trends, he or she might be painted as an ugly Christian. But God forbid this means we should actually become ugly Christians.
Your point is well taken.Yet the conundrum as it pertains to social ,cultural issues,is the ability to speak out as Christians,without glossing over the issues for fear of being called bigoted,hateful. We are called to be a voice for Christ ,how do you propose we walk that fine line?
 
Maybe he’s dressed in a corset and sexy is because of Kims influence on him. I know she was enouraging him to look “good” and we all know what Kim thinks looks good. :rolleyes:
 
There is a fine line between sounding hateful and actually speaking up for the truth. The danger is that in our PC culture,far too many are afraid to speak the truth.Any criticism of the cultural cause of the day will result in intolerance from the very ones screaming for tolerance.
I don’t think it’s a fine line at all. Descriptors like “Monstrosity”, “Horrifying”, “Insane”, and “Demented” are not necessary to speak the truth.

E.g.: I don’t support Bruce’s “transition” for his own good. It is bad science and it is harmful.
 
There is a fine line between sounding hateful and actually speaking up for the truth. The danger is that in our PC culture,far too many are afraid to speak the truth.Any criticism of the cultural cause of the day will result in intolerance from the very ones screaming for tolerance.
Exactly. And a lot of people may fancy themselves active Catholics, but they’ve succumbed to the widespread malady known as “Moralistic Therapeutic Deism.” That explains much of the false compassion we’ve been reading and hearing.
 
Exactly. And a lot of people may fancy themselves active Catholics, but they’ve succumbed to the widespread malady known as “Moralistic Therapeutic Deism.” That explains much of the false compassion we’ve been reading and hearing.
Comparing a trans person to their son thinking he is a dinosaur, or mocking them by suggesting it’s the same as someone waking up one day thinking they are a pine cone, is willfully ignorant, unnecessarily mean and spiteful, and completely disregards the real struggles and hardship of trans people.

If we want to talk about vile and disgusting, how about we start with those comments.
 
The problem is that speaking the “Truth” as we know it falls on deaf ears; we are Catholics and, non-Catholics, even different Christian sects, have a different view of what is Truth than we do.

So we are sort of putting the cart before the horse.

The best way to expose someone to Truth is to evangelize them, that is win them over to Christ. And this is not alway done with words, but with our own actions not being contrary to what we say and contrary to the Gospels, especially Matthew 25 where “prisoner” can allegorically be interpreted to mean someone imprisoned by his or her passions and demons.

When we use harsh rhetoric to expose the Truth as we know it, we can have the opposite effect, that is, drive people away. We then have the loss of souls on our own conscience, and for that WE will have to atone, not the misguided person we purport to want to help.

To reach out to the lost, we must first start by meeting them where they are and upholding their dignity through kindness and non-judgmental interaction with them. We must reach them by making our faith attractive.

Eventually someone like this, a transgendered person, may realize the dead end their quest has brought them to. When that happens, we need to be there to listen with empathy. It will not be the time to say “I told you so”.
Yes, speaking the truth may fall on deaf ears. But this is not a case of arguing theological or philosophical truths. This is a matter of just recognizing reality. When a society has gone so far into living fantasy as if it were reality, I don’t know what is called for.

Our society seems increasingly unable to distinguish fantasy from reality. It cannot distinguish men from women; it thinks that there can be marriage which can never be conjugal. It thinks that fornication is an acceptable preparation for, or substitute for, marriage, If one argues that after all, the human race is composed of men and women, even that will be treated as arguable.

We have come to the stage where the imposition of human desire on external reality is taken to be not the pursuit of fantasy, but just a human right, calling for compassion and recognition of fantasy as reality. If this is the case, psychologists and psychiatrists might as well toss out their standard manuals, and just recognize their patients’ mental disorders as real and help them to live as if they were real.
 
:sleep:
Comparing a trans person to their son thinking he is a dinosaur, or mocking them by suggesting it’s the same as someone waking up one day thinking they are a pine cone, is willfully ignorant, unnecessarily mean and spiteful, and completely disregards the real struggles and hardship of trans people.

If we want to talk about vile and disgusting, how about we start with those comments.
 
Bruce isn’t the issue. There are disordered people everywhere. This is a pathology of the American public who have made it front page news. America is an increasingly insane place and there will be a heavy geopolitical/economic/social price paid for our folly.

“Really, this people, only yesterday so intelligent and discerning, seem to have been overcome by a disease of the mind” -Friedrich Reck-Malleczewen, German Author, 8/11/1884 - 2/16/1945 (Dachau)
 
Your point is well taken.Yet the conundrum as it pertains to social ,cultural issues,is the ability to speak out as Christians,without glossing over the issues for fear of being called bigoted,hateful. We are called to be a voice for Christ ,how do you propose we walk that fine line?
Charitably, as Christ Himself walked it. I might suggest that we have two approaches already identified here: 1) we use uncharitable analogies and descriptors like “vile” and “disgusting,” or 2) we point out factual content and offer prayers and compassion. We may encounter ugliness even when using the second approach – but only one of these two approaches is truly in line with Christian values.
Comparing a trans person to their son thinking he is a dinosaur, or mocking them by suggesting it’s the same as someone waking up one day thinking they are a pine cone, is willfully ignorant, unnecessarily mean and spiteful, and completely disregards the real struggles and hardship of trans people.

If we want to talk about vile and disgusting, how about we start with those comments.
Well said.
Yes, speaking the truth may fall on deaf ears. But this is not a case of arguing theological or philosophical truths. This is a matter of just recognizing reality.
But it also a matter of how we do so. I’m not sure describing the feelings of these individuals as fantasy is going to start things off positively discussion-wise.
 
Yes, speaking the truth may fall on deaf ears. But this is not a case of arguing theological or philosophical truths. This is a matter of just recognizing reality. When a society has gone so far into living fantasy as if it were reality, I don’t know what is called for.

Our society seems increasingly unable to distinguish fantasy from reality. It cannot distinguish men from women; it thinks that there can be marriage which can never be conjugal. It thinks that fornication is an acceptable preparation for, or substitute for, marriage, If one argues that after all, the human race is composed of men and women, even that will be treated as arguable.

We have come to the stage where the imposition of human desire on external reality is taken to be not the pursuit of fantasy, but just a human right, calling for compassion and recognition of fantasy as reality. If this is the case, psychologists and psychiatrists might as well toss out their standard manuals, and just recognize their patients’ mental disorders as real and help them to live as if they were real.
Yep.

I remember, in the '90’s, my brother commenting on a guy who on Friday came to work as Sam and on Monday, as Samantha (who was an engineer), it was an engineering firm.

My brother,who’s quite droll, said the makeup was plastered on and the stubble was showing through (I felt soo sorry for the guy, at that time), but in the UK the person must live as the other gender, before getting hormone therapy, for 2 years.

One comment my brother made was that the guy came into work with high heels and a mini skirt on, i.e. not in female trousers/ pants. A few years back, I spoke to another engineer, a friend, mentioning the story above and he said 4 engineers in his firm had done the same, came in one day, out of the blue, dressed as women, as above. :eek:

Personally, I believe there is some ‘sexual’ element attached to male-female trans, as it seems to be based on the superficial, world-generated sexualisation of a woman - i.e. loads of makeup, short skirts, high heels - as opposed to the trans person developing ‘feminine-like’ emotional qualities. But who knows. 🤷
 
I would evaluate this in its proper context, which is as an attempt to catch the wave of what is currently trendy for commercial purposes. In other words, it is an attempt to gain publicity for the purpose of profiting from what is at the moment center screen on the radar of the politically correct. This in itself is neither here nor there. I think it is a cynical business decision. Will Caitlyn reveal whether “she” is straight or gay? The world awaits…
 
A poster above said the rhetoric does not help, and another followed up in agreement …

What is rhetoric, but bombast, the ability to use language effectively, the use of exaggeration or display. In presenting himself as Caitlyn on Vanity Fair, Bruce did such in the manner he did.

Really, people are surprised? Newton’s third law: Every action produces a reaction. Matt Walsh’s reacted the way a very reasonable person does given society’s incomprehensible applause to jarring inventions of “self”, as if nature would always be forgiving to any and all devices, challenging it, essence to just be put aside.

The image of Bruce on the cover of VF is jarring. Just as that picture of Thomas Beatie, the pregnant “man” was jarring. Just as the image of two shirtless gay men, ostensibly in tears, welcoming holding their newborn “son” in the delivery room when their surrogate (of course, a female) gave birth. That image was over the top jarring.

These are outright quarrels with our Maker. The pot thinks it can dictate whatever with the Potter. Or what is formed say to Him who formed it, “He has no understanding.”
 
I quit listening to NPR about two years ago, when every news hour had a story about AGW, homosexuality, or evolution. Now it’s transgender. Every so often I tune in, and I wonder how I stood it all those years.

They really push an agenda.
Ignoring the fact that evolution is accepted by the Catholic Church?
 
Vile. Disgusting. The fact that this isn’t being roundly condemned–and made mockery of–from pillar to post just illustrates that we are at a socio-economic stage where nothing matters except monetary profit and self-fulfillment. A late stage indeed. We all know that Bruce Jenner is, and always will be male, and there’s nothing he or anyone else can do to change this. Sadly, I think this is just another hint of the approaching End Times. And yes, we can never be sure of when exactly that will be. But, if we happen upon a woman who is obviously pregnant, we can be pretty sure she is going to give birth, even if we do not know exactly when. Thus it is with the End Times. They are “pregnant”; it’s only a question of when. 😦
Yup the charitable thing for Catholics to do is to mock what is perceived to be a mental illness…
 
Yes, speaking the truth may fall on deaf ears. But this is not a case of arguing theological or philosophical truths. This is a matter of just recognizing reality. When a society has gone so far into living fantasy as if it were reality, I don’t know what is called for.

Our society seems increasingly unable to distinguish fantasy from reality. It cannot distinguish men from women; it thinks that there can be marriage which can never be conjugal. It thinks that fornication is an acceptable preparation for, or substitute for, marriage, If one argues that after all, the human race is composed of men and women, even that will be treated as arguable.

We have come to the stage where the imposition of human desire on external reality is taken to be not the pursuit of fantasy, but just a human right, calling for compassion and recognition of fantasy as reality. If this is the case, psychologists and psychiatrists might as well toss out their standard manuals, and just recognize their patients’ mental disorders as real and help them to live as if they were real.
👍 this!!
 
I actually don’t think it’s that difficult. Noting the suicide rates of those post-surgery is reasonable and charitable. Likening those who go through with the surgery to antelopes, pine cones, and dinosaurs is not reasonable or charitable. I can remember the earlier comment in this thread about putting lipstick on a pig. How is that helpful? It might make people here feel better to commiserate with one another. But it does nothing to help those who are in genuine pain. And as Havard noted above, it only serves to depict Christians as bigots. I understand and appreciate the feeling that whatever one says against current trends, he or she might be painted as an ugly Christian. But God forbid this means we should actually become ugly Christians.
I may not have been clear in the point I was trying to make. My point is that the reaction from the cultural revolutionaries is the same whether you call Bruce Jenner a degenerate or decline to participate in a same-sex marriage. You’re a h8ter. People inclined towards compassion really don’t want to deal with that, which leaves the field for the people who don’t mind being hateful.
 
Would it be proper to also believe all anorexic persons who say they are fat despite the biological evidence to the contrary? Or all persons with a Messiah or a Napolean complex that they must therefore indeed be the Messiah or Napolean? Or anyone who claims to be the reincarnation of X?

If not, why believe Jenner’s claims vs. theirs?
 
Would it be proper to also believe all anorexic persons who say they are fat despite the biological evidence to the contrary? Or all persons with a Messiah or a Napolean complex that they must therefore indeed be the Messiah or Napolean? Or anyone who claims to be the reincarnation of X?
Apples and oranges. Different disorders.
If not, why believe Jenner’s claims vs. theirs?
Because, believe or not, there are actually standards of care for this disorder and surgeons don’t chop up healthy organs just for the heck of it. Jenner will have been evaluated by at least two mental health professionals and would be undergoing ongoing evaluation. My understanding is that Jenner has not yet had genital surgery.

The big difference here is of course that Jenner’s case has been turned into a media circus. Most of these cases aren’t so overtly exposed in the media.
 
Apples and oranges. Different disorders.

Because, believe or not, there are actually standards of care for this disorder and surgeons don’t chop up healthy organs just for the heck of it. Jenner will have been evaluated by at least two mental health professionals and would be undergoing ongoing evaluation. My understanding is that Jenner has not yet had genital surgery.

The big difference here is of course that Jenner’s case has been turned into a media circus. Most of these cases aren’t so overtly exposed in the media.
So what if it’s a different disorder? And what if an anorexic person claims to still be fat after lengthy medical study? Do we accept the person’s claim or appeal to the biological evidence to the contrary?
 
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