Bruce Jenner's Début as "Caitlyn"

[Ridgerunner]

You’re really becoming quite ugly when there’s no need to be. Again, you’re demonstrating that you believe Jenner made this change to secure a position on the cover of a magazine (even as you claim this isn’t what you mean). And I’ve noted why that’s a problematic assumption. Step back and take a deep breath. Being transgendered is about far more than wanting to wear pretty clothes and make-up.

I’m not sure that’s what Patti was saying. She can, of course, further develop the thought if she wishes to do so.

I purport to have no expertise on transgenderism. It’s probably not just one thing. But it does seem almost eerie that Jenner’s first “coming out” was to appear in a “glamour” shot in scanty clothing on a magazine for all the world to see. No shot of what women commonly do in their ordinary lives. Just this highly artificial presentation of what (to some feminists at least) is a caricature of femininity.

Puts me to mind of a lady I knew who was talking to me about divorcing her husband. Appears he got his hands on some kind of estrogen preparation or other and was in the process of growing breasts. There were other details that were extremely unsettling to her, not the least of which was his increasingly domineering actions toward her.

At a point, she had what seemed to me a “eureka” moment. She said it seemed to her his possessiveness was so out of kilter than he wanted to “possess femininity itself”; to “own it”. That moment of realization was so awful to her that she then ran to the bathroom and threw up. Needless to say, she divorced the guy. Paid a heavy price for doing it too, as he essentially “declared war” on her in all sorts of ways.

Jenner was never a little girl. He was never a pre-teen girl. He was never a pubescent girl. He was never a young woman or a middle aged woman. He never lived the life of a woman, or what it is to be one. He isn’t a woman in any meaningful way. He only has acquired the outward appearance of one at age 65, and even that appearance seems air-brushed (probably is) and as unreal as the air-brushed photos of female sterotypes in “girly” magazines. The bogus “playmate” who never has to clean the refrigerator or drag herself through the rain to work, or calls upon her husband to help clean up when she has the flu and leaves the bathroom a mess. A Barbie doll.

So, one wonders just what Jenner thinks he has accomplished. And one wonders, too, how some manage not to find it creepy.

 

[JimG]

Does the Church approve of deliberate bodily mutilation?

 

[Patti_M]

I’m not sure that’s what Patti was saying. She can, of course, further develop the thought if she wishes to do so.

I purport to have no expertise on transgenderism. It’s probably not just one thing. But it does seem almost eerie that Jenner’s first “coming out” was to appear in a “glamour” shot in scanty clothing on a magazine for all the world to see. No shot of what women commonly do in their ordinary lives. Just this highly artificial presentation of what (to some feminists at least) is a caricature of femininity.

Puts me to mind of a lady I knew who was talking to me about divorcing her husband. Appears he got his hands on some kind of estrogen preparation or other and was in the process of growing breasts. There were other details that were extremely unsettling to her, not the least of which was his increasingly domineering actions toward her.

At a point, she had what seemed to me a “eureka” moment. She said it seemed to her his possessiveness was so out of kilter than he wanted to “possess femininity itself”; to “own it”. That moment of realization was so awful to her that she then ran to the bathroom and threw up. Needless to say, she divorced the guy. Paid a heavy price for doing it too, as he essentially “declared war” on her in all sorts of ways.

Jenner was never a little girl. He was never a pre-teen girl. He was never a pubescent girl. He was never a young woman or a middle aged woman. He never lived the life of a woman, or what it is to be one. He isn’t a woman in any meaningful way. He only has acquired the outward appearance of one at age 65, and even that appearance seems air-brushed (probably is) and as unreal as the air-brushed photos of female sterotypes in “girly” magazines. The bogus “playmate” who never has to clean the refrigerator or drag herself through the rain to work, or calls upon her husband to help clean up when she has the flu and leaves the bathroom a mess. A Barbie doll.

So, one wonders just what Jenner thinks he has accomplished. And one wonders, too, how some manage not to find it creepy.

I like this statement. He never was a little girl, pre-teen, teenage girl, etc. He decides to become a woman at a time when most woman have gone thru or are going thru menopause. I think he has formed some strange idea of what a woman is and it isn’t real. I said before and will say again, I hope he gets the mental help he needs.

 

[gracepoole]

Does the Church approve of deliberate bodily mutilation?

2297 of the CCC: “Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.”

The problem comes when determining whether this kind of surgery is needed for “strictly therapeutic reasons.”

 

[JimG]

2297 of the CCC: “Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.”

The problem comes when determining whether this kind of surgery is needed for “strictly therapeutic reasons.”

I don’t see how it could be for therapeutic reasons, since it is not possible to surgically change a man into a woman. He remains a man. I guess that’s why it is called sex reassignment surgery rather than sex change surgery. It seems to be surgery in pursuit of trying to make fantasy into reality.

 

[gracepoole]

I’m not sure that’s what Patti was saying. She can, of course, further develop the thought if she wishes to do so.

I purport to have no expertise on transgenderism. It’s probably not just one thing. But it does seem almost eerie that Jenner’s first “coming out” was to appear in a “glamour” shot in scanty clothing on a magazine for all the world to see. No shot of what women commonly do in their ordinary lives. Just this highly artificial presentation of what (to some feminists at least) is a caricature of femininity.

Puts me to mind of a lady I knew who was talking to me about divorcing her husband. Appears he got his hands on some kind of estrogen preparation or other and was in the process of growing breasts. There were other details that were extremely unsettling to her, not the least of which was his increasingly domineering actions toward her.

At a point, she had what seemed to me a “eureka” moment. She said it seemed to her his possessiveness was so out of kilter than he wanted to “possess femininity itself”; to “own it”. That moment of realization was so awful to her that she then ran to the bathroom and threw up. Needless to say, she divorced the guy. Paid a heavy price for doing it too, as he essentially “declared war” on her in all sorts of ways.

Jenner was never a little girl. He was never a pre-teen girl. He was never a pubescent girl. He was never a young woman or a middle aged woman. He never lived the life of a woman, or what it is to be one. He isn’t a woman in any meaningful way. He only has acquired the outward appearance of one at age 65, and even that appearance seems air-brushed (probably is) and as unreal as the air-brushed photos of female sterotypes in “girly” magazines. The bogus “playmate” who never has to clean the refrigerator or drag herself through the rain to work, or calls upon her husband to help clean up when she has the flu and leaves the bathroom a mess. A Barbie doll.

So, one wonders just what Jenner thinks he has accomplished. And one wonders, too, how some manage not to find it creepy.

I agree that he may be embracing stereotypes of women. I just don’t believe this is the primary motivation to have sex reassignment surgery. As I said earlier, given his public persona and his association with the Kardashians, it seems far more likely that the magazine cover and reality show are byproducts that seem quite natural to him. (Unhealthy no doubt but natural to him given his life thus far.) And of course, if he had transitioned at a younger age, would this mean that he was embracing a more honest understanding of femininity?

 

[estesbob]

I don’t see how it could be for therapeutic reasons, since it is not possible to surgically change a man into a woman. He remains a man. I guess that’s why it is called sex reassignment surgery rather than sex change surgery. It seems to be surgery in pursuit of trying to make fantasy into reality.

Correct.

 

[gracepoole]

I don’t see how it could be for therapeutic reasons, since it is not possible to surgically change a man into a woman. He remains a man. I guess that’s why it is called sex reassignment surgery rather than sex change surgery. It seems to be surgery in pursuit of trying to make fantasy into reality.

And you may be right. But the fact that the Vatican has not said as much is significant. It leaves questions that don’t seem to warrant use of disparaging terminology toward those who have the surgery. Of course, you may be wrong, too. Although I think some of us believe we have the answers to this situation, I think there’s likely far more we don’t understand than what we do understand.

 

[Sy_Noe]

All of her children are being very supportive. The only person in the family who, while still voicing support, seems to be having trouble with this is Kris Jenner (which I think is totally understandable).

One of her sons even said in the Sawyer interview the first thing that came to his mind was it all makes sense now.

 

[Sy_Noe]

He has described himself as a Christian.

Yes in the Sawyer interview Bruce said he is a Republican and a Christian and on the conservative side. He would sit in church and wonder how does God see him? He told Diane but then he came to a realization that maybe this is why God put him on this earth, to deal with this issue.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yes in the Sawyer interview Bruce said he is a Republican and a Christian and on the conservative side. He would sit in church and wonder how does God see him? He told Diane but then he came to a realization that maybe this is why God put him on this earth, to deal with this issue.

Except, of course, there is no real understanding of the “issue” other than that he wanted to do this and felt somehow compelled to do it. About the source of the compulsion, nobody knows anything, likely including him.

 

[ucfengr]

Yes in the Sawyer interview Bruce said he is a Republican and a Christian and on the conservative side. He would sit in church and wonder how does God see him? He told Diane but then he came to a realization that maybe this is why God put him on this earth, to deal with this issue.

And I imagine at that very moment God did a facepalm.

 

[estesbob]

Yes in the Sawyer interview Bruce said he is a Republican and a Christian and on the conservative side. He would sit in church and wonder how does God see him? He told Diane but then he came to a realization that maybe this is why God put him on this earth, to deal with this issue.

How strange. If God wanted him to be a woman why didnt he just make him a woman

 

[Havard]

And you may be right. But the fact that the Vatican has not said as much is significant. It leaves questions that don’t seem to warrant use of disparaging terminology toward those who have the surgery. Of course, you may be wrong, too. Although I think some of us believe we have the answers to this situation, I think there’s likely far more we don’t understand than what we do understand.

I agree with you that it’s a very poorly understood condition.

But as I have voiced in this thread before, politics is steamrolling science here. Society may be enabling precisely the wrong thing. But there is no room for dissent now that the progressive p.c. police have entrenched themselves as they have.

It doesn’t matter if your interests are 100% pure, if your heart is full of compassion and zero bigotry. Bruce is Caitlyn, a woman, she, period. And anyone who says otherwise is an ignorant, judgmental relic of the cisgender patriarchy.

 

[Ridgerunner]

And of course, if he had transitioned at a younger age, would this mean that he was embracing a more honest understanding of femininity?

Hard to think he would be, since the whole thing is a palpable falsehood. If one is not female, one just isn’t, and wanting it does not make it so. It’s hard for me to imagine one having “gender preferences” without also having the knowledge that there are differences. If one is old enough to know there are differences, that person will always know he/she is not genuinely what he/she is purporting to be.

 

[OraLabora]

How strange. If God wanted him to be a woman why didnt he just make him a woman

Since the Fall we’ve been saddled with disorders, diseases, corruption, etc. That’s why.

I’m a bit shocked at the lack of charity towards Jenner. We may or may not agree with the current treatment for transgenderism… but that they do suffer is very real; the suicide rate among them is very high. Most transgenders aren’t in the public eye as much as a former olympic athlete though. For some transition appears to have helped, for others it hasn’t. I personally know of only one transgendered person, a former colleague. She was suicidal before seeking help and beginning her transition; I would never be rude enough to her that I refer to her by her former male name or with male pronouns. The person has made a choice we may not agree with, but I do believe we have to respect that choice as the best way they could find to reconcile the image they have of themselves and reality.

I should therefore think that as Catholics, a degree of compassion needs to be shown towards people who suffer so much from this condition. While we know very little about the etiology of this condition, in the past we have ascribed to demons mental illnesses that have turned out to have organic causes (such as schizophrenia) and we no longer tell folks dealing with depression to “snap out of it”, so it is probably to our benefit to be more charitable and instead pray that medical research can lead to a much more effective treatment for the condition than bodily mutilation. Certainly some studies have suggested brain differences in transsexuals which would confirm that this is simply another disorder that can afflict humans, and that it should be dealt with as a medical issue before deciding on the most moral course of action.

I think what the Church says about homosexuals can quite properly be applied to this situation:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

(CCC)

Personally I think the proper response for us is to simply pray for those carrying the cross of this affliction.

 

[Havard]

I’m a bit shocked at the lack of charity towards Jenner.

You should have seen the thread earlier, it’s been cleaned up a bit. I’ve flagged posts in this thread, and I’m sure I’m not the only one.

 

[Dawnia]

I would never be rude enough to her that I refer to her by her former male name or with male pronouns. The person has made a choice we may not agree with, but I do believe we have to respect that choice as the best way they could find to reconcile the image they have of themselves and reality.

In order to be charitable, one has to lie?

 

[Havard]

In order to be charitable, one has to lie?

No, definitely speak the truth. But do it compassionately. We don’t have to be like most people who are either saying crude, mean things, or else wholly accepting the identity change.

 

[qui_est_ce]

{snip}
Jenner was never a little girl. He was never a pre-teen girl. He was never a pubescent girl. He was never a young woman or a middle aged woman. He never lived the life of a woman, or what it is to be one. He isn’t a woman in any meaningful way. He only has acquired the outward appearance of one at age 65, and even that appearance seems air-brushed (probably is) and as unreal as the air-brushed photos of female sterotypes in “girly” magazines. The bogus “playmate” who never has to clean the refrigerator or drag herself through the rain to work, or calls upon her husband to help clean up when she has the flu and leaves the bathroom a mess.** A Barbie doll.**

So, one wonders just what Jenner thinks he has accomplished. And one wonders, too, how some manage not to find it creepy.

Yes, it’s an insult to women who have real bodies which have gone through pregnancy and childbirth. Real faces which have weathered the storms of raising children and teenagers.