Bruce Jenner's Début as "Caitlyn"

[EasterJoy]

Ah, Havard. There are some voices I always appreciate hearing from regarding certain topics around here and yours is most definitely one that’s needed regarding this topic. And I agree that the issues here are complex. In general conversation with community members, I don’t hear much acknowledgement of what you’ve noted previously: that the suicide and depression rates for those who go through the surgery can remain high. It may well be that we’re doing a disservice to the transgendered by applauding every case like Jenner’s. I first heard about this complexity when listening to Women of Grace on EWTN. It was medically fascinating. Unfortunately, one of the associates there then went on to claim that Jenner (pre-surgery) was “milking this for all it’s worth.” I think that’s precisely the wrong approach to take. We don’t need to disparage the motives of those experiencing this affliction in such a way. Doing so does nothing to help us further understand any of it.

As for pronouns, I have a friend who’s engaged to someone who had sex reassignment surgery. And even my friend makes mistakes now and then when referring to her partner via pronouns. This is reassuring, since I still make mistakes referring to him, as well. I believe one should refer to another using the pronoun that he or she desires. I also think there’s a learning curve involved. I’d wager none of us grew up in communities where this sort of thing was normalized. And as many have noted, it has come up culturally quite quickly. I don’t agree with those who vehemently protest the use of “she” for Jenner. But I’m willing to cut some slack to those who (like me) probably forget and use the wrong term out of habit. Not indefinitely, but at least perhaps initially.

What the world is now telling us is that any decent person ought to shoot any kid who dares to say that the emperor has no clothes. That is so wrong, but it is the extreme to which we ought to have expected “politically correct” speech to eventually go.

The person we came to know as Bruce Jenner who now refers to himself as Caitlyn is not now and never will be female. If society wants to change the polite use of pronouns to reflect whatever gender pretense that the person being referred to wants, there isn’t much to be done about that. When a man won’t answer to any name except Caitlyn, there isn’t much you can do about that. The whole world isn’t under our control, nor should it be. Still, we can reserve the right to recognize that a person’s gender cannot actually be reassigned. It is the truth, and we ought to stick up for those who speak that truth, no matter who is offended by it.

 

[Havard]

Ah, Havard. There are some voices I always appreciate hearing from regarding certain topics around here and yours is most definitely one that’s needed regarding this topic. And I agree that the issues here are complex. In general conversation with community members, I don’t hear much acknowledgement of what you’ve noted previously: that the suicide and depression rates for those who go through the surgery can remain high. It may well be that we’re doing a disservice to the transgendered by applauding every case like Jenner’s. I first heard about this complexity when listening to Women of Grace on EWTN. It was medically fascinating. Unfortunately, one of the associates there then went on to claim that Jenner (pre-surgery) was “milking this for all it’s worth.” I think that’s precisely the wrong approach to take. We don’t need to disparage the motives of those experiencing this affliction in such a way. Doing so does nothing to help us further understand any of it.

As for pronouns, I have a friend who’s engaged to someone who had sex reassignment surgery. And even my friend makes mistakes now and then when referring to her partner via pronouns. This is reassuring, since I still make mistakes referring to him, as well. I believe one should refer to another using the pronoun that he or she desires. I also think there’s a learning curve involved. I’d wager none of us grew up in communities where this sort of thing was normalized. And as many have noted, it has come up culturally quite quickly. I don’t agree with those who vehemently protest the use of “she” for Jenner. But I’m willing to cut some slack to those who (like me) probably forget and use the wrong term out of habit. Not indefinitely, but at least perhaps initially.

You’re too kind, and I return the compliment.

I agree that there’s nothing gained in attacking the motivations of another. As for the names, pronouns, etc., I just don’t think it’s disrespectful to call him Bruce, etc. It’s not done out of disrespect, but rather out of respect.

 

[EasterJoy]

When explaining what she was about to undergo, Jenner told her children that when she was parenting them for years, it was as much “she” that was doing so as “he.” In other words, she believes that the “she” has always been part of her internally. It just wasn’t expressed externally. I’m quite sure she believes she “earned her stripes” internally, as well. Speaking as a woman, I don’t feel bothered or insulted that she is now going to call herself a woman because she didn’t go through the periods, the breastfeeding, the transition from attractive young woman to mature older woman. I am grateful, however, that I’ve always felt at home in my body and have never desired to be male.

The truth is that he’s a very confused man who believes that he isn’t telling the truth about himself unless he obscures his actual body with hormones and surgery and takes on a female persona. I cannot begin to understand what a painful affliction that is, but I cannot believe that treating the invented persona as the “truth” is an ethical cure. He is not a woman. He is never going to be a woman. He is a feminized man living within a female persona. He may be getting old, but treating a mental illness by pretense is not mature. I do not blame him, since I think his physicians and other mental-health counselors lead him to believe that this could cure his affliction, but I also cannot agree with the contortions of ethical principle that make this line of “treatment” possible.

I have to believe that truth eventually wins out, and that this line of “treatment” will eventually be come to be seen not as progress, but rather as one of those well-meant travesties of medicine, something akin to the era when lobotomies were the great new bit of psycho-surgical “progress.” People of the future are going to think we were lunatics, and they will see people such as Caitlyn née Bruce Jenner as among the victims of this lunacy.

 

[Havard]

:flowers:

Oh RACJ, you shouldn’t have! :blushing:

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I’m not sure that’s what Patti was saying. She can, of course, further develop the thought if she wishes to do so.

I purport to have no expertise on transgenderism. It’s probably not just one thing. But it does seem almost eerie that Jenner’s first “coming out” was to appear in a “glamour” shot in scanty clothing on a magazine for all the world to see. No shot of what women commonly do in their ordinary lives. Just this highly artificial presentation of what (to some feminists at least) is a caricature of femininity.

Puts me to mind of a lady I knew who was talking to me about divorcing her husband. Appears he got his hands on some kind of estrogen preparation or other and was in the process of growing breasts. There were other details that were extremely unsettling to her, not the least of which was his increasingly domineering actions toward her.

At a point, she had what seemed to me a “eureka” moment. She said it seemed to her his possessiveness was so out of kilter than he wanted to “possess femininity itself”; to “own it”. That moment of realization was so awful to her that she then ran to the bathroom and threw up. Needless to say, she divorced the guy. Paid a heavy price for doing it too, as he essentially “declared war” on her in all sorts of ways.

So, one wonders just what Jenner thinks he has accomplished. And one wonders, too, how some manage not to find it creepy.

This is dead on the mark. Bruce Jenner seems to have been in a power struggle with Kris for a long time. They are both Scorpios, therefore highly sexual. (Kim is too). Everything about the Kardashian family exudes sex, money, power and sensationalism. I truly think this is a power play for getting more publicity and notoriety than Kris.

 

[bibcat]

This is dead on the mark. Bruce Jenner seems to have been in a power struggle with Kris for a long time. They are both Scorpios, therefore highly sexual. (Kim is too). Everything about the Kardashian family exudes sex, money, power and sensationalism. I truly think this is a power play for getting more publicity and notoriety than Kris.

You’re using astrology as an excuse?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

You’re using astrology as an excuse?

Not an excuse, but an explanation of the dark side of their characters.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Dudes picture looks like a lady Unphotoshopped dude looks like a man

So true. This photo looks WAAAAY better than any other photos of him.

 

[gracepoole]

The person we came to know as Bruce Jenner who now refers to himself as Caitlyn is not now and never will be female. If society wants to change the polite use of pronouns to reflect whatever gender pretense that the person being referred to wants, there isn’t much to be done about that. When a man won’t answer to any name except Caitlyn, there isn’t much you can do about that. The whole world isn’t under our control, nor should it be. Still, we can reserve the right to recognize that a person’s gender cannot actually be reassigned. It is the truth, and we ought to stick up for those who speak that truth, no matter who is offended by it.

As for the names, pronouns, etc., I just don’t think it’s disrespectful to call him Bruce, etc. It’s not done out of disrespect, but rather out of respect.

It’s definitely confusing. In my personal life, it would be extremely problematic to continue calling my friend’s fiance “she” when “he” is now the preferred pronoun. And while I’m not against standing up for something, doing so wouldn’t have any positive outcome. None of my friends or their friends would actually rethink the issue because I maintained use of “she.” Especially since the individual in question does not appear to be one of those who experiences depression and suicidal thoughts post-surgery. The problem, which is what you’ve both stated or alluded to, is that to even ask questions becomes a sign of bigotry. And I agree.

 

[Jeanne_S]

So,being transgendered can run the gamut from someone like Bruce aka Caitlyn Jenner,who states that he isn’t into men,still likes women.So is he now considered a lesbian?Then you have Chastity aka Chaz Bobo,who now consideres herself a man,is into women,so is she a former lesbian now a heterosexual?

 

[Havard]

Not an excuse, but an explanation of the dark side of their characters.

Astrology is not useful for anything, be they excuses or explanations.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

So,being transgendered can run the gamut from someone like Bruce aka Caitlyn Jenner,who states that he isn’t into men,still likes women.So is he now considered a lesbian?Then you have Chastity aka Chaz Bobo,who now consideres herself a man,is into women,so is she a former lesbian now a heterosexual?

Gender and gender expression and sexual orientation are not the same.

 

[JimG]

It’s definitely confusing. In my personal life, it would be extremely problematic to continue calling my friend’s fiance “she” when “he” is now the preferred pronoun. And while I’m not against standing up for something, doing so wouldn’t have any positive outcome. None of my friends or their friends would actually rethink the issue because I maintained use of “she.” Especially since the individual in question does not appear to be one of those who experiences depression and suicidal thoughts post-surgery. The problem, which is what you’ve both stated or alluded to, is that to even ask questions becomes a sign of bigotry. And I agree.

Ask what question? Do you mean, it would be rude to ask the person in question which pronoun they prefer? Maybe so, if one already knows the answer. Still, it’s not rude to acknowledge, if asked, that of course a man cannot be changed into a woman or vice versa.

And I can’t help but wonder how much damage can be done in the long run by accepting fantasy as reality. Human beings are already pretty good at that.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Gender and gender expression and sexual orientation are not the same.

So,basically,what it boils down to is you have Bruce a man who wants to dress up and look like a women,because deep down he really feels like a women,yet he is still into women…
Yeah,now I get it.

 

[gracepoole]

Ask what question? Do you mean, it would be rude to ask the person in question which pronoun they prefer? Maybe so, if one already knows the answer. Still, it’s not rude to acknowledge, if asked, that of course a man cannot be changed into a woman or vice versa.

And I can’t help but wonder how much damage can be done in the long run by accepting fantasy as reality. Human beings are already pretty good at that.

No. I mean asking questions about whether surgery is actually a genuine solution.

Again, my friend is not a good case-in-point for someone suffering for accepting a fantasy. He’s quite happy now. Truly. Now another friend is raising her 8-year-old son as a girl. That’s become a very different can of worms…

 

[JimG]

No. I mean asking questions about whether surgery is actually a genuine solution.

Again, my friend is not a good case-in-point for someone suffering for accepting a fantasy. He’s quite happy now. Truly. Now another friend is raising her 8-year-old son as a girl. That’s become a very different can of worms…

Oh my goodness, that is a very different can of worms. Raising a boy as a girl is a serious matter.

As for accepting a fantasy, I think many people are quite happy to accept fantasy as reality; I just don’t think it is beneficial.

 

[qui_est_ce]

What no one talks about that the morbidity and mortality among persons with this affliction do not approach that of the general population after the surgery, either. It is very difficult to argue that this is a “cure.”

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

The other thing that is not talked about is whether it is ethical to surgically remove healthy body parts and to pharmacologically upset a person’s natural hormones in order to support the pretense that a physician can make a male into a female or vice versa.

Physicians can artificially feminize males. They can artificially masculinize females. They can get results by which a male can pass as a female and a female can pass as a male, as long as the person perpetuating the pretense is given the privacy to cover-up their true gender. They cannot change a male into a female or a female into a male. It is a deceit. How is perpetuating a deceit for the purpose of relieving a patient’s anxiety be considered ethical, particularly when the truth can never really be hidden from the patient?

From the article:

Conclusions

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

Very sad.

 

[EasterJoy]

So true. This photo looks WAAAAY better than any other photos of him.

If there were a surgeon that could really do that to 65-year-old Californian necks, so the necks looked that smooth even when relaxed, it would be the surgeon would be on the cover of Vanity Fair, and not Jenner!!

I’m thinking that if I see this person in real life, I would not recognize the person on the magazine cover. (Which, too be fair, is probably not that unusual for subjects over 50…or none of them would allow their bare necks on magazine covers.)

 

[EasterJoy]

Very sad.

Let us not be under the impression that anyone asks for this in order to get attention. I can hardly imagine anyone could be that foolish. This is a real disorder, in any event, and it can prove very difficult to treat. I believe that. I just don’t believe that the surgery is some rectification of a biological malformation by which a true woman is born with a man’s body.

I do have to wonder if our obsession with pursuit of an idealized self-definition doesn’t make this disorder more difficult to bear.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Let us not be under the impression that anyone asks for this in order to get attention. I can hardly imagine anyone could be that foolish. This is a real disorder, in any event, and it can prove very difficult to treat. I believe that. I just don’t believe that the surgery is some rectification of a biological malformation by which a true woman is born with a man’s body.

I do have to wonder if our obsession with pursuit of an idealized self-definition doesn’t make this disorder more difficult to bear.

It is sad, because there is a whole industry being built around capitalizing on this disorder. It’s sad, because the industry is convincing people that mutilating their bodies will bring them happiness. The article to which I replied “very sad” to said the suicide rate among those who had the surgery was much higher than in the general population.

Vanity fair using an hormone pumped, airbrushed, rich, white, transgendered male, who can afford this, as the ideal female body is despicable.

(sorry about the grammar).