Bruce Jenner's Début as "Caitlyn"

[Murmurs]

So if I were born a homicidal maniac, I should just start killing people because my brain says it’s alright. God creates us. God creates us male and female. To decide to physically make ourselves into something other than what God created, no matter what our brains tell us, has to be an affront to God’s will. More than that, it makes ourselves God.

Well…no. That would be ridiculous. I’d also say that Jenner’s actions would be utterly appalling if they constituted harming someone else even if it wasn’t murder.

I don’t see how it’s very different to having any other kind of plastic surgery, to be honest (though I’m never sure the end result is an improvement but that’s a different matter). Or reconstructive surgery after a bad car accident. If God is so innately involved in the creation of every human life, He presumably also orchestrates car crashes. I’m happy to go along with that idea - but if an objection to sex reassignment surgery is that it’s messing with the original packaging, then the same must be said for anything beyond immediate life-saving surgery after an accident.

God endowed us with sufficient ingenuity to be able to do this. Now that doesn’t mean we should (we can also make nuclear weapons but that certainly doesn’t mean we should, or should use them), but we should consider if an a non-harmful way we can use something we’ve developed to help people.

I have a lot of objections to what Jenner is doing (forming part of a reality show? really? it’s not good role-modelling because apart from anything else she can afford the best surgery while many people who suffered as the former-Bruce did, can’t), just not to the surgery itself.

Because physical disabilities happen without choice. There is nothing anyone’s mind can do if they are born without limbs or without sight, but with circumstances like Jenner’s, it’s all about choice. No one says that a cross like his would be easy to bear, but others have far worse crosses to bear than anything Bruce Jenner is going through. If they can carry theirs, I don’t see what the big deal is that Jenner should carry his without mutilating himself.

Jenner’s mental (illness? disease? “issues”?) happened without choosing too. Just because it’s something we can’t see doesn’t mean we should consider the tremendous strain Jenner (was/is) under isn’t very different from someone with a physical disability.

You say that as if there is a particularly clear understanding of transgenderism and a proven course of action.

Well I quite agree with your implication - there isn’t. But I’m also not going to criticise her for taking what she felt was the best course for her. Whether or not we agree with what Jenner has done, it takes an awful lot of courage to do it.

 

[ucfengr]

In a free society, Bruce Jenner can cut off his penis, wear a dress, and call himself a woman if he wants to, but that doesn’t make him a woman any more than putting on an Army uniform and 5 stars makes him Douglas MacArthur. I think the question we need to work out is what is our obligation to cater to his desire? Obviously, we are called to be compassionate, but what does that look like? Is catering to a delusion compassionate? Sometimes probably, but I’m the problem with Jenner’s situation is he’s making it a media circus and plans to profit from it, significantly. There are other people that are using this to push a political agenda? What is my obligation to them? And then there are some real questions about how to classify trans-men and women. If Jenner or some other trans-mans decide he wants to try out for woman’s college sports, should he be allowed? If a male soldier decides to identify as a woman, should he get to meet the lower female standards for physical fitness? Should trans-men be allowed to try out for the WNBA? There wouldn’t be a problem with a woman trying out for a men’s NBA team, in fact it would be celebrated for a month on ESPN, why shouldn’t a trans-man have the same consideration?

 

[Bruised_Reed]

In a free society, Bruce Jenner can cut off his penis, wear a dress, and call himself a woman if he wants to, but that doesn’t make him a woman any more than putting on an Army uniform and 5 stars makes him Douglas MacArthur. I think the question we need to work out is what is our obligation to cater to his desire? Obviously, we are called to be compassionate, but what does that look like? Is catering to a delusion compassionate? Sometimes probably, but I’m the problem with Jenner’s situation is he’s making it a media circus and plans to profit from it, significantly. There are other people that are using this to push a political agenda? What is my obligation to them? And then there are some real questions about how to classify trans-men and women. If Jenner or some other trans-mans decide he wants to try out for woman’s college sports, should he be allowed? If a male soldier decides to identify as a woman, should he get to meet the lower female standards for physical fitness? Should trans-men be allowed to try out for the WNBA? There wouldn’t be a problem with a woman trying out for a men’s NBA team, in fact it would be celebrated for a month on ESPN, why shouldn’t a trans-man have the same consideration?

Jenner is a trans-woman not a trans-man.

 

[Havard]

Well I quite agree with your implication - there isn’t. But I’m also not going to criticise her for taking what she felt was the best course for her. Whether or not we agree with what Jenner has done, it takes an awful lot of courage to do it.

It’s not a black and white world where you have to choose only between condemnation or praise. I love Bruce and have no interest whatsoever in attacking him. And yes, his decision must not have been easy, I recognize that. But I cannot, in good conscience, support it. I do this specifically because I love him.

 

[ucfengr]

Jenner is a trans-woman not a trans-man.

Who can keep up with language these days?

 

[rae317]

In a free society, Bruce Jenner can cut off his penis, wear a dress, and call himself a woman if he wants to, but that doesn’t make him a woman any more than putting on an Army uniform and 5 stars makes him Douglas MacArthur. I think the question we need to work out is what is our obligation to cater to his desire? Obviously, we are called to be compassionate, but what does that look like? Is catering to a delusion compassionate? Sometimes probably, but I’m the problem with Jenner’s situation is he’s making it a media circus and plans to profit from it, significantly. There are other people that are using this to push a political agenda? What is my obligation to them? And then there are some real questions about how to classify trans-men and women. If Jenner or some other trans-mans decide he wants to try out for woman’s college sports, should he be allowed? If a male soldier decides to identify as a woman, should he get to meet the lower female standards for physical fitness? Should trans-men be allowed to try out for the WNBA? There wouldn’t be a problem with a woman trying out for a men’s NBA team, in fact it would be celebrated for a month on ESPN, why shouldn’t a trans-man have the same consideration?

Oh please.

Seriously you talk of compassion - consider how crude and mean spirited your whole post is.

Being a bit respectful and polite to someone even if you have a moral objection takes nothing away from you. or is it just that hard to be a decent person? We trans women threaten your right to not be a decent person?

I’m a transsexual woman too. implying I am just a man wearing a dress who cut her penis off is just rude and insulting for no reason at all other then it fulfills your need to feel right and superior and being able to put people who you don’t understand and who have nothing to do with how you live you life down.

 

[Thomas_White]

Well, let’s consider this for a moment from a theological perspective. Are we to suppose God erred when he made Bruce Jenner a male? Or are we to believe God was perhaps confused, unsure of what it was he was doing at that moment? Or was he maybe just playing a celestial April Fool’s joke on Bruce?

 

[jaxster99]

It’s not a black and white world where you have to choose only between condemnation or praise. I love Bruce and have no interest whatsoever in attacking him. And yes, his decision must not have been easy, I recognize that. But I cannot, in good conscience, support it. I do this specifically because I love him.

Thank you Havard - Agree completely. It is possible to be loving and disagree with a person’s choices. Indeed, it is out of love that we are compelled to speak up. Frankly, I am very surprised that the Church’s teachings on this subject are so misunderstood.

 

[ucfengr]

Oh please.

Seriously you talk of compassion - consider how crude and mean spirited your whole post is.

Being a bit respectful and polite to someone even if you have a moral objection takes nothing away from you. or is it just that hard to be a decent person? We trans women threaten your right to not be a decent person?

I’m a transsexual woman too. implying I am just a man wearing a dress who cut her penis off is just rude and insulting for no reason at all other then it fulfills your need to feel right and superior and being able to put people who you don’t understand and who have nothing to do with how you live you life down.

Forgive my bluntness, but, you don’t me menstrate, you can’t have a child, you can’t nurse a child. How in any biologically meaningful way are you a woman?

 

[gracepoole]

Thank you Havard - Agree completely. It is possible to be loving and disagree with a person’s choices. Indeed, it is out of love that we are compelled to speak up. Frankly, I am very surprised that the Church’s teachings on this subject are so misunderstood.

They aren’t misunderstood because they aren’t clear to begin with. This isn’t a criticism of the Church: it’s just a fact. The Church hasn’t fully weighed in on this issue regarding it as a sin or not, perhaps because so much remains unknown about it. I’m glad you’ve come to peace about your view on this subject, jaxster, and I’m glad you’ve done so in concert with prayer. But it’s just disingenuous to claim that the Church has definitively spoken on the subject.

 

[Thomas_White]

If a mental disease actually required physical treatment, then it wouldn’t just be a mental disease. Right? In other words, some mental disorders are treated with external therapies, like counseling. Persons with chemical imbalances or something like that have a physical issue.

Wrong. Clinical depression (major depression), for instance, is classified as a mental illness and not a physical disease. It involves a well-understood chemical imbalance in the brain and is often effectively treated with anti-depressant medication. In that sense, clinical depression is a medical issue even though it is usually considered a “mental” illness. The same is true for many conditions classified as mental disorders–that is, that there is an underlying physical component, and it is often causal. Once this is understood, an effective treatment is often possible.

Before this was well understood, there were all sorts of wild theories about the causes of mental illness, theories involving demons and so on, and treatment often did more harm than good. This is where we ought to be careful when something isn’t understood. The brain is a physical organ of the body, and the once hard and fast line between mental and physical illness has become misleading.

So, what is going on with Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner? I would have to say we just don’t know.

 

[jaxster99]

We’ve been through this.

It sounds like your argument is that gender reassignment is therapeutic because it is attempting to resolve a psychological issue. This is fallacious reasoning and does not meet the condition of “therapeutic” because a person’s biological sex is not a problem that needs to be fixed since there is **unity of body and soul **(CCC365).

Many, MANY, MANY Popes & Priests have specifically addressed this issue. A few quotes –

"Surgically modifying one’s body would be a serious sin. Such surgery which purposefully destroys the bodily integrity of the person must be condemned " – Fr. William P. Saunders

“Let’s think of the nuclear arms, of the possibility to annihilate in a few instants a very high number of human beings. Let’s think also of genetic manipulation, of the manipulation of life, or of the gender theory, that does not recognize the order of creation. With this attitude, man commits a new sin, that against God the Creator. The true custody of creation does not have anything to do with the ideologies that consider man like an accident, like a problem to eliminate.” – Pope Francis

“[Gender reassignment] [D]estroy the very essence of the human creature through manipulating their God-given gender to suit their sexual choices.” …[W]hen freedom to be creative becomes the freedom to create oneself, then necessarily the Maker himself is denied and ultimately man too is stripped of his dignity as a creature of God.” – Pope Benedict

“The profound falsehood of this theory and of the anthropological revolution contained within it is obvious. People dispute the idea that they have a nature, given by their bodily identity, which serves as a defining element of the human being. They deny their nature and decide that it is not something previously given to them, but that they make it for themselves. According to the biblical creation account, being created by God as male and female pertains to the essence of the human creature. This duality is an essential aspect of what being human is all about, as ordained by God.” – Pope Emeritus Benedict

 

[meltzerboy]

Wrong. Clinical depression (major depression), for instance, is classified as a mental illness and not a physical disease. It involves a well-understood chemical imbalance in the brain and is often effectively treated with anti-depressant medication. In that sense, clinical depression is a medical issue even though it is usually considered a “mental” illness. The same is true for many conditions classified as mental disorders–that is, that there is an underlying physical component, and it is often causal. Once this is understood, an effective treatment is often possible.

Before this was well understood, there were all sorts of wild theories about the causes of mental illness, theories involving demons and so on, and treatment often did more harm than good. This is where we ought to be careful when something isn’t understood. The brain is a physical organ of the body, and the once hard and fast line between mental and physical illness has become misleading.

So, what is going on with Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner? I would have to say we just don’t know.

I agree with regard to your analysis of depression. I would add, however, that for a while now, clinical psychologists have regarded depression and other mental illnesses as spectrum disorders on a continuum. Thus certain kinds of depression may have a more biological component, while others less so. It is also the case that a biological treatment may help a psychological disorder and a psychological treatment may help a biological disorder. IOW, there need not be a correlation between etiology (cause) and treatment.

With regard to transgenderism, I also agree with you that “we just don’t know.” Psychologists who study sexuality are at the beginning of their understanding of this particular phenomenon. Some studies have shown differences in the brains of transgender people compared to both heterosexual and homosexual people; however, the research is still in its preliminary stages.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Forgive my bluntness, but, you don’t me menstrate, you can’t have a child, you can’t nurse a child. How in any biologically meaningful way are you a woman?

Wow. I don’t know where to start. I’ve never had a child or nursed a child, nor can I now. Doctors have been nagging me for years to get a hysterectomy but I’m irrationally worried about how I will be be perceived as a woman or as feminine. Anyone who uses lists any part of a woman’s reproductive system or having had a child or the ability to is hurtful to women who don’t have children, or a uterus or a vagina or breasts to nurse.

Knock it off.

I hope my uterus is not the only thing that makes me a woman, but these comments (and it’s not just ucfengr) make it sound like that is the only thing that matters.

 

[gracepoole]

It sounds like your argument is that gender reassignment is therapeutic because it is attempting to resolve a psychological issue. This is fallacious reasoning and does not meet the condition of “therapeutic” because a person’s biological sex is not a problem that needs to be fixed since there is unity of body and soul (CCC365).

No. Actually, I’ve stated several times throughout this thread that I personally think sex reassignment surgery is more problematic than a true solution. And there does seem to be a growing body of evidence to support this view. But it has not been proven that this surgery is tantamount to mutilation that isn’t based in a therapeutic medical reason. This is why it’s not possible to state that the Church has conclusively spoken on this subject.

 

[Cider]

Oh please.

Seriously you talk of compassion - consider how crude and mean spirited your whole post is.

Being a bit respectful and polite to someone even if you have a moral objection takes nothing away from you. or is it just that hard to be a decent person? We trans women threaten your right to not be a decent person?

I’m a transsexual woman too. implying I am just a man wearing a dress who cut her penis off is just rude and insulting for no reason at all other then it fulfills your need to feel right and superior and being able to put people who you don’t understand and who have nothing to do with how you live you life down.

Stating the truth isn’t mean. What’s mean is contributing to peoples delusions.

 

[gracepoole]

I agree with regard to your analysis of depression. I would add, however, that for a while now, clinical psychologists have regarded depression and other mental illnesses as spectrum disorders on a continuum. Thus certain kinds of depression may have a more biological component, while others less so. It is also the case that a biological treatment may help a psychological disorder and a psychological treatment may help a biological disorder. IOW, there need not be a correlation between etiology (cause) and treatment.

With regard to transgenderism, I also agree with you that “we just don’t know.” Psychologists who study sexuality are at the beginning of their understanding of this particular phenomenon. Some studies have shown differences in the brains of transgender people compared to both heterosexual and homosexual people; however, the research is still in its preliminary stages.

I agree with both you and Thomas. This is probably why this topic is so frustrating and confusing. We all prefer factual information but at present, we really don’t know much factually about this topic. A picture is beginning to take shape but it’s still largely incomplete. I am immensely grateful that I don’t suffer from gender identity disorder and can only pray that none of my children will either.

 

[Faith1960]

Dennis Miller the comedian,had the answer to your question.
He said" look,if you can write your name in the snow while peeing,your a boy!
I guess it really is just that simple!

I guess a really talented girl could do that.

 

[Thorolfr]

Some studies have shown differences in the brains of transgender people compared to both heterosexual and homosexual people; however, the research is still in its preliminary stages.

If it is true that the brain of a transgender person is physically different from that of a heterosexual or a homosexual person, why should it be decided that it is the sex organs and other more easily apparent traits that should determine gender and whether someone is a man or a woman rather than an internal but nonetheless very real physical trait in the brain?

 

[Thomas_White]

I agree with regard to your analysis of depression. I would add, however, that for a while now, clinical psychologists have regarded depression and other mental illnesses as spectrum disorders on a continuum. Thus certain kinds of depression may have a more biological component, while others less so. It is also the case that a biological treatment may help a psychological disorder and a psychological treatment may help a biological disorder. IOW, there need not be a correlation between etiology (cause) and treatment.

Sure. As I said, clinical depression “is often effectively treated with anti-depressant medication.” In other instances, psychotherapy might prove more beneficial. In many cases, both treatments are recommended. As for a correlation between etiology and treatment, there is something like the chicken or the egg in play that is not yet understood, i.e., what is the etiology of insufficient neurotransmission of serotonin in a particular instance? Are there situational factors? Is heredity a factor? Or both?